Now, I know this “discussion” will eventually devolve into an Us v, Them argument. And, I know this topic has been hashed, hashed and rehashed a bazillion times with out resolution.(There is no resolution) And, I know the folks who really need to read and think about this are not readers of on line forums(There are 1000’s of those folks). So, after much thought here goes(Well, 4 hours sleep and a cup of coffee or two).

Is there anyone out there who doesn’t want their events to be “better?” I find the answer to that often asked question simple. The answer is an emphatic “NO!” There are 1000’s of folks out there who don’t care if the status quo changes; ever. And, that is quite clear. They attend the same events, year after year and are quite happy with the way things exist. These people outnumber the folks who want a “better event” by far and away. Ergo, the folks who organize the same events that happen year after year of 5 year anniversary after anniversary don’t give a hoot in he11 about changing their events. And, if those same people have a product that sells, why tamper with a money maker?


Those folks who want “better” events have the opportunity to attend them. Those events have become more and more available over the last few years and, being willing to make small personal and financial concessions to get closer to actual history, folks go. These events are scheduled, generally, when ever the organizer feels like, without concern for the events listed in the previous paragraph. Why you ask? Because in many cases, there are clearly two different consumer bases to be drawn from and, never the two shall meet. This group of consumers being decidedly smaller than the group who “doesn’t care to change,” also, doesn’t care, for the most part about buying the other product or, the differences in the events created by their smaller numbers. These consumers are willing to sacrifice things they consider unnecessary, in order to purchase what they also consider a better product.


Is this division created by those who constantly complain about the products out there for sale on internet boards? No. Then, where does the division begin? That’s easy; the division begins with the producers of the product. So, when does a product get itself changed or removed from the market? That’s easy, when folks stop buying the product or demand a change in the product by threatening not to purchase it. Even with the declining numbers in those purchasing the offered products, the large percentage of consumers still prefer one product, continue to purchase that product, and, you don’t have to be hit on the head to see that quite clearly. The consumer group likes the product, doesn’t want it to be changed and the proof is; as consumers they keep buying.


So, here’s how I see it. If I don’t like the product, I don’t buy it. That mantra is the same for millions of folks and products across the country and around the world. And, those folks won’t buy a product they don’t want, need or like on purpose, ever. Been there, done that, and the product doesn’t work for me, it doesn’t fill my needs. And, the times I have purchased a product I don’t especially like, I do so with the knowledge beforehand. And, ergo, I know what to expect from the product. So, why should I spend money on a product I don’t need when, I can get one that I feel I do need? So, why should the way I purchase a product be different just because this is the “Recreation of the Civil War,” in some, way, shape or, form? For me, there is no difference. And, that’s exactly the way it works for 1000’s of folks, most of who, by far and away, could care less about what’s posted on an Internet board.

So, if you want “Campaigners” or, “Authentics” or “insert your favorite term” to attend “Mainstream” or “Mega” or “National” or “insert your favorite term here” events, you’ll have to find consumers who like the product and sell them into taking on that role.

So, OK now, that’s enough Marketing, Economics and Sales 101.

Hey, Grumpy, did you run out of wallpaper paste?  

No, just covering "all the bases."

I'll be thinking of you, as I turn Old Whitey the Wundertruck's nose northward and head up I-81 next week. It's funny how NY's best events have the same folks involved time after time.  

Quote :

GrumpyDave wrote : Is there anyone out there who doesn’t want their events to be “better?” I find the answer to that often asked question simple. The answer is an emphatic “NO!” There are 1000’s of folks out there who don’t care if the status quo changes; ever. And, that is quite clear. They attend the same events, year after year and are quite happy with the way things exist. These people outnumber the folks who want a “better event” by far and away. Ergo, the folks who organize the same events that happen year after year of 5 year anniversary after anniversary don’t give a hoot in he11 about changing their events. And, if those same people have a product that sells, why tamper with a money maker?

Grumpy,

I would tend to disagree. I think most people want "better" events. The problem is defining exactly what better means. That might mean more authentic camps, or more authentic scenarios, or cleaner Port-potties, more sutlers, or maybe just better funnel cake vendors.

In terms of the product you are buying. Sometimes I eat at Ruth Chris' Steak House, sometimes I eat at the local Pizza place and sometimes I eat at Hooters. I wouldn't want a steady diet of any of them. Same goes for the events I attend. There are some folks who only want to attend one type of event and others who want to attend a variety of events. In either case, no harm, no foul.

I'm involved with an annual Mainstream event that has gone on for eighteen years. It doesn't mean we don't try to make it better for the folks who enjoy this type of event. Does that mean it would be "better" for everyone? Heck no, but it also doesn't mean that the event hasn't gotten better over the years.  

When you talk about an event being a money maker, you need to define your terms. Cedar Creek, Neshaminy, Paynes Farm, and the annual Gettysburg event are all money makers. Only one is a "for profit" money maker.

As an example, Mr. Anders has been putting on events that appeal to a portion of the reenacting community. They are indeed "better" for those who enjoy them, but they certainly aren't better for everyone.  

Money maker = for profit

I disagree. I don't have actual numbers but, besides the decline the hobby is experiencing, I don't think attendance at the big money makers is really changing. Most folks are very happy with the status quo and, don't care if anything changes. And, you don't see them on internet boards EVER for that matter. I'd venture to guess, if you took the two (or more) hobbies as a whole, by far and away, most group schedules are the same year after year and, the 5 year birthdays are always there. There's been better events around since I joined the hobby but, the majority of folks just aren't willing to make any (historical) concessions and refuse to attend them. Thus, they plod happily along, consuming what they have always consumed. Yes, there are "better" events out there and again, I will say, the majority of the folks buying the product are very content to keep buying what they have always bought. And, I don't see folks knocking down doors to get their hands on any better product. For every one person that complains to the "better" event staff, wondering why they can't bring their "widget" to event 'x' there's 100's who don't even care there's an event 'x'.

Neshamminy is the exception, not the rule. Some of the proof in what I type will be in what the GAC puts on. 100's complained last time but, like sheep, they'll be back, happily sending in their registration $ because that's the product they want. That mess will be the same as it was for the last 10 years but, with different names.  

I'm right, you know it. You can't fight economics.

I hope you had fun at the CW museum. I tried to keep the rain away.  

--Last edited by grumpydave on 2007-07-30 12:39:00 --

Dave,

Other than the annual GAC event at Gettysburg, I don't know of another reenactment that's put on for the direct profit of the organizers. Do you?

We missed most of the thunder storms this weekend and I was able to bring dry canvas home. Life is good.  

I'd have to say, all of the larger events held in the East with the exception of Cedar Creek and Neshamminy are for profit. Of course, all of the 5 year deals are for profit.

My main point is however, there are many more folks happy with the product that's out there then there are who aren't. Let's call them the "silent majority."

It rained really hard at my house on Saturday night. I'm glad the storm didn't cross the river.

Grumpy,

Most of the profitmongers are gone, and some are long gone. Without mentioning names, the end of the 125th anniversary series saw one group tank, and the one-two punch of Manassas a la Leesburg and the 140th Antietam fiasco pretty much took out another well known operation as headliners. Cancer has caused some changes in the Eastern for-profit line up, and it will be interesting to see how that plays out for the 2008 GAC offering. I have to admit I've lost track of one fellow since his Grand Review event a few years ago, but you probably remember the fallout from that.

I'm surprised to see Bill say it with such force, but the vast majority of reenactors really are like sheep, and the various unit schedules reflect this.  Other than some fine tuning, I can think of some units with schedules virtually unchanged in a decade.  No, I'm not kidding. You can set your watch by them.

This sheep will be heading to Winter 1864 next February....  

Quote :

Charles Heath wrote : Grumpy, I'm surprised to see Bill say it with such force, but the vast majority of reenactors really are like sheep,

Charles,

I don't remember saying reenactors were like sheep. Cats maybe, but not sheep!

O M G  ! Herding cats! It's been a while since I "herd" that one!

Grumpy,

I've been involved with trying to get one mainstream group amd one CPH group to agree on what events to attend. Trust me, cats are easy to herd.

It's funny. We piss and moan about the wrong things. I'm planning to attend therteen or fourteen events this season. Three of them will have more than 1,000 participants. None of the three are pure CPH events. I'm only attending one 24-2 CPH event this season, the Fredericksburg Slaughter Pen. Most of the events I'll attend this year are local mainstream or living histories of one sort or another. Participants will vary from 20 to 250. Other than next year's Gettysburg, is anybody having a problem figuring out which mega-event to attend?      

Nope. And, you can figure out why. LOL!