You know, most things seem to go in cycles.  Gettysburg seemed to be the intitial spark for the early 90's,  as well as the Burns special, but reenacting has been around since the war ended.  Will it get stronger again down the road?  I mean for all levels of the hobby.  Will something spark it all up again down the road?  We all talk about getting new blood in the hobby, but will it take another movie or the 150th?  Has it gone up and down in your units over the years?  Just wondering...

I don't think the 150th's are going to increase participation all by themselves. The last great influx was a combination of 135th's AND the two media events. Unless Spielberg or Eastwood are releasing a CW movie sometime in the next year, I think it'll be a while until the numbers are what they werre in the 1990's to 2002 or 2003. And, to boot,  we're all 15 years older. Then there's Bill who's older than dirt. For some reason, the younger guys, who started out in the 90's and early 2000's haven't picked up the leadership torch and kept it burning. Maybe it all goes back to that generation's "what are you doing for me now?" mentality and their short, very short, attention span. It'll take something very large and wel publicised, media wise, for things to perk up again.

Grumpy, living where we do the hobby has seen young folks come and go as if a revolving door. They generally stop briefly at WW2 after finding out the CW is more than buying clothing and talking about clothing at events. You grew up on a dairy farm, and have a connection to the old ways through your grandfather. My parents grew up in an environment far more 19th century than 20th, and the connection to equine power, non-electrical equipment, and a daily life that is foreign to most folks these days serves as a pretty good background.

Plus, a heck of a lot of the here today/gone tomorrow folks have missed some great events because they can't seem to travel more than a couple of hours from home.  Funny thing is, I find the hobby gets better with each passing year. When I'm too dinged up to participate any more, I can look back at some great historical interpretation, great times, great events, and for the most part some dang fine people.

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and for the most part some dang fine people.

It is the people that are keeping me in this hobby.  It would be great attending all new events, but after a double digit number of years in the hobby there is going to be inevitable repetition.  The camaraderie and rapport that develops among people distills some of the drudgery out of that repetitiousness.

When both of us were younger, my son and I were active participants for a good many years.  Those shared experiences are priceless treasures.  Their value increases as more time passes.  This hobby had a large share in transforming that skinny little kid from a shy/reticent bookwormish young fellow into someone who regularly speaks to largish groups of people.  It also provided a foundation for a magna cum laude bachelors in history and English and a masters with a double emphasis of history and international studies. (Mom and Dad’s check book also helped a tad)  The boy is grown up and that Mississippi Gulf Coast kid has experienced his first Wisconsin winter.  Nonetheless, it all comes down to the people.  If the people, and the chemistry that existed among them, had not been present at those times and those places…………who knows?

I know there is a movie in the works about the Andrews raid or Great Locomotive Chase (and no it's not Disney this time). Perhaps that is a glimpse that Hollywood is considering some Civil War movies before the 150th. One thing we may be able to do is contact our local politicians and boards of education to perhaps promote the 150th heavy in the local communities. Get PBS to run the Ken Burns series again, etc.

I find this thread very interesting, as I and my company as well as our families are on the other end of the reenacting timetable, if you will, as most folks who post on this and other forums. I started reenacting 4 years ago as a fresh fish in an established mainstream unit. We had some good times and bad times. Being a new troop, I didn't know a good event from a bad one. The unit was a good one (on the field) and we made some good friends, but the unit fell apart due to many reasons, with alcohol/drama/leadership problems being the main ones.
 In July last year, we, meaning myself and the 6 other men in my squad from the old unit formed the 22nd NC, Co. K. Since then, we've managed to improve to 16 men on the rolls. We've done numerous events, including the Gettysburg farb event this year, as well as some history heavy gotta do it right living history events locally. We're mainstream. We are striving to "kick it up a notch" and make every aspect better. This unit will hopefully in a few seasons be one of the best in NC. One of our goals is to have our unit in 100% first person from the start at every event, which is unheard of in the mainstreamers (at least in my admittedly short career).  
  As a footnote to Curtis' post, my son is 9 yrs. old, and has been to quite a few events. He's served as a powder monkey and managed to carry colors at Gettysburg. I'll be 49 years old in 6 weeks. I've been fascinated with the WBTS since I was a kid, but only discovered a passion for reenacting in my 40s. The friendships/memories my family has made in a short period of time are priceless and I love the excitement in our household when an event gets close.
 To me personally, from a mainstream perspective, the spectator battles rank way down on my "why I'm here" list. My favorite time, being an early bird, is being the first one up, way before reveille. Getting the coffee started, chatting with whoever else wakes up next, watching the daylight slowly come up, the camps slowly come alive, the mist, a warm cup of coffee in cold hands...AND the masochistic part of me enjoys that ritual of waking the lazy troops up.
 My last paragraph may be fodder for a "why do I reenact" thread. As a low mileage reenactor, I'd like to hear your personal reasons for why you wear the wool.

2nd Sgt. Gregg Hensley
22nd NC, Co. K
The McDowell Boys  
 

"My favorite time, being an early bird, is being the first one up, way before reveille. Getting the coffee started, chatting with whoever else wakes up next, watching the daylight slowly come up, the camps slowly come alive, the mist, a warm cup of coffee in cold hands...AND the masochistic part of me enjoys that ritual of waking the lazy troops up."

Gregg, my apologies for picking on you in advance. Earlier in your post you talk about picking it up a bit, improving your impression bit by bit, becoming more like they were in little steps. Great!

But then why destroy all of that by violating Reveille? All the stuff you just described in your last paragraph is right up there on the frabometer. They were too tired to get up earlier than need be. They would have been punished for talking out loud prior to reveille. Chopping wood, snap crackling a new fire, fetching water for coffee, etc. prior to Reveille would have been silent or not done at all. The old infantry adage: why stand when you can sit, why sit when you can lie down, why stay awake when you can sleep comes to the forefront. For sure we don't always do the nighttime picket stuff (and they didn't either every single night like we portray at many events, sometimes it was another regiment's turn!) nor the 20 mile march for the 3rd day in a row (so you are BONE tired and couldn't stay awake if you tried).

Admittedly they would have had earlier wakeups than most events.....but as the bugler at many events (over 100 in the last 10 years) let me tell it doesn't matter what time Reveille is, there's always someone that can't sleep and start's jawing with the 2nd person awake (which wakes up another dozen people, which wakes up the entire camp.....). If this first up early riser, make the fire, start yapping reenactor is you, STOP IT.

If it's a 530AM bugle call, then STFU and lie in bed until the call is sounded, and then start bitchin' and moaning. Not before. Have the kindling and dry wood under a rubber blanket or edge of a piece of canvas/shebang....fill up your canteens AND muckets/tin cups, etc. with water the night before.....when you hear the bugle get the fire crackling right quick and put the coffee water on the fire. By the time the fifes and drums finish a screechin' your company can call roll lickety split (we're not talking 80 rifle reenacting companies, right? more like 20....and orders for the day were supposed to be given out at yesterday's retreat roll call, not the Revielle rifle count roll call, this should go QUICKLY!)....and the coffee should be all set to get to go 15 minutes after Reveille on the bugle.

And oh yes. Don't steal my impressions thunder. Less than 50% of events and officer's know how to use buglers properly. One of my job's is to wake up the camp. That's not your job. Don't take my rice bowl away (with apologies to Steve McQueen and Frenchy in "The Sand Pebbles").

I appreciate the apologies, and no offense taken at "picking on me". I'm a very early riser due to work, so invariably I'm awake very early at events. As a lifelong camper, I always have a small pile of kindling stashed in the dry. I simply toss it on the coals or start from scratch...quietly, discreetly. When the flames arrive, the coffee water goes on. This being done in the time frame that no one is disturbed out of their sleep, i.e close to reveille. I then sit back and watch and listen as the morning comes up. As far as waking others goes, when the bugle blows, they get up. There again, we generally do smaller events where rarely do we have a bugler. When the watch strikes the appointed time, I wake them up.
  I certainly wouldn't want to steal your thunder. I envy anyone with musical ability...I have trouble playing a CD player. To be honest, here in NC, I'd push your 50% up closer to 95%. No offense intended to any of the folks around the Old North State, but an officer or company that understands bugle calls and uses them is a rarity (my company included). It's hard enough finding new soldiers, much less one whose interest lies in the musician impression. I wish it was different, but that's the way it is. Hmmm, maybe I can get my son to pick up the bugle. He's been working with a fife some, so maybe we can steer him towards musician. After all, a bugle weighs a darn sight less than a musket

Gregg Hensley
22nd NC, Co. K  

--Last edited by Gregg Hensley on 2007-09-03 21:04:32 --

im also a morning person at events. but not at home...go figure. but im also the cook...which means getting the fire going, water going, and all that so food is ready when its time to get up. i love watching the sunrise and just enjoying the quiet time when i dont have to tell the kids no or entertain someone elses ideas.

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toptimlrd wrote : I know there is a movie in the works about the Andrews raid or Great Locomotive Chase (and no it's not Disney this time). Perhaps that is a glimpse that Hollywood is considering some Civil War movies before the 150th. One thing we may be able to do is contact our local politicians and boards of education to perhaps promote the 150th heavy in the local communities. Get PBS to run the Ken Burns series again, etc.

PBS has been running the Ken Burns series here by us lately..

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Ken Cornett wrote : You know, most things seem to go in cycles.  Gettysburg seemed to be the intitial spark for the early 90's,  as well as the Burns special, but reenacting has been around since the war ended.  Will it get stronger again down the road?  I mean for all levels of the hobby.  Will something spark it all up again down the road?  We all talk about getting new blood in the hobby, but will it take another movie or the 150th?  Has it gone up and down in your units over the years?  Just wondering...

I started this hobby in 1998 and the group I was part of has shrunk over the years.  We had people who when I was starting were getting into the 20+ years of doing it.. and they were retiring from the hobby for their own reasons.. and we had others who retired for familiy comitments.  When I joined the group we could usually put about 20-25 guys on the field for each event.  Now we look like we are getting about 8-12 guys for most events.

But at the same time we are looking to recruit some youth and with that I think as we look to bring in new people we are using the events like McDowell and Summer of 62 to do this.  We do start them off at a more relaxed event to get them drilled and such but the goal is to get their teeth into the more active events.

Do I think another movie will help bring in new numbers.. Nope.. not unless you can get the kids interested in seeing the movie.  I think the kids camps, school programs and even cooperation between a reenacting unit and youth group is what will help grow the numbers.  

As far as going up and down over the years, yeah, we have experienced the down.  Nope, the up side of the original question has alluded us.  What we have are 59 people listed on our roster as soldiers.  There are an additional fourteen listed as civilians.  That’s 73 people and it looks great on paper.  The sad truth of the matter is these numbers only exist on paper.  The vast proportion of them dependably pay dues but seldom ever put in an appearance.  The reality of the numbers is there are only a dozen to fifteen consistently participating members.  Saying that another way:  Our numbers on paper are impressive, but we are sadly anemic when it comes to actual participants.

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Curtis Makamson wrote : Our numbers on paper are impressive, but we are sadly anemic when it comes to actual participants.

Curtis,

Welcome to my world.  

Bill, while I'm thinking about it, you ought to email Doug Oakes about the 2008 Death March. It is in PA, and I know he hasn't set a firm date for it yet. His email is oldsoldier51@yahoo.com

The things we think of while sitting on the tractor....

"ARTICLE XXVIII. HOURS OF SERVICE AND ROLL-CALLS.

230. In garrison, reveille will be sounded immediately after day-break; and retreat at sunset; the troop, surgeon's call, signals for breakfast and dinner at the hours prescribed by the commanding officer, according to climate and season. In the cavalry, stable-calls immediately after reveille, and an hour and a half before retreat; water-calls at the hours directed by the commanding officer."

RJ, your discourse raises an interesting question.  Is reveille purely a wake up call, or the signal for the start of the official hours of duty?  I think that's an important distinction.  Taps or "Lights Out" signals lights out and quiet time, but it can't dictate that you fall asleep that instant.  Reveille signals the start of the working day, but it can't dictate that no one be awake before then.  Someone does have to be awake to sound musicians call, and someone has to wake that person (recently I found out who).  If a good soldier should happen to rise just at first light or before, I should think it perfectly acceptable that they get ready for roll call.

Your job is to tell everyone that the Army's work day has officially begun.  That's important enough without insisting on being everyone's alarm clock.

Interestingly, in looking at the order book for the AOP's engineer brigade, in 1864 the summer hours of duty were from 5 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., and the winter hours were 6:00 a.m. to 8:30 p.m.  In each case reveille is a bit before first light, and taps some time after sunset.  I don't know if all commands followed the same schedule, or if this was just the engineers, but it does seem that this brigade did not feel strictly bound by the Regulations.

Not that everyone always paid attention anyway.  From the Army and Navy Journal of February 4, 1865, we have the following (note the last sentence):

"The following General Order No. 10, issued by Major-General Ord, shows that strict attention is paid to discipline in the Army of the James: --
"I.  Hereafter, and until further orders, the troops of this command will be under arms at reveille, which will be sounded at day-break.  The regimental adjutant, all company officers, and one field officer, or in case there is no field office in the regiment, an officer acting as such, will be present.  The adjutant will receive the reports from the company commanders, and report to the field officer all absent without proper authority.  Brigade and division commanders will send their staff officers at reveille to see if this order is executed.  The practice of staff officers at various headquarters remaining abed until 9 or 10 o’clock, must be stopped...."

FWIW, at "Down the Valley" and "September Storm" I recommended later hours for both reveille and taps, keying the former to the Naval Observatory's projected sunrise (later than "civil twilight") and the latter to the dictates of the event schedule.  I fully expect most people to be awake by the time reveille sounds, though it's been my experience that they're not making much noise at that hour.  "Lights Out" is always another story.

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Michael Schaffner wrote :Interestingly, in looking at the order book for the AOP's engineer brigade, in 1864 the summer hours of duty were from 5 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., and the winter hours were 6:00 a.m. to 8:30 p.m.  In each case reveille is a bit before first light, and taps some time after sunset.

I dunno, seems like reveille would vary more widely than that, but would never be before first light during May through August.

Not sure what that means, other than that regiment seemed to go by the clock more than the lighting. I agree that taps would always be after sunset.

In late June, sunrise would be about 4:45 a.m. (no daylight savings time), with dawn starting about 4:15, so a 5 a.m. reveille would be in sunlight. By the end of August, when sunrise would be about 5:30 a.m. and first light about 5 a.m., reveille would be just at first light.

In late December, sunrise would be at 7:30, with dawn at 7, so the darkest winter reveille would be an hour before first light.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

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hanktrent wrote :   Not sure what that means, other than that regiment seemed to go by the clock more than the lighting. I agree that taps would always be after sunset.

Hank,

Do we have any clue what time might have been on those clocks?

Time keeping was still a very imprecise science in the 1860's.

I had been looking at this site:  http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl

"The following information is provided for Washington, District of Columbia (longitude W77.0, latitude N38.9):

       Saturday
       5 May 2007            Eastern Daylight Time          

                        SUN
       Begin civil twilight       5:37 a.m.                
       Sunrise                    6:06 a.m.                
       Sun transit                1:05 p.m.                
       Sunset                     8:04 p.m.                
       End civil twilight         8:33 p.m.                

                        MOON
       Moonrise                  10:47 p.m. on preceding day
       Moon transit               3:16 a.m.                
       Moonset                    7:43 a.m.                
       Moonrise                  11:44 p.m.                
       Moonset                    8:36 a.m. on following day"


But I hadn't thought about Daylight Savings Time.  

I've also generally wondered about clock time in our period.  I've assumed, perhaps for no good reason, that clock time in a military unit would be driven by the nearest railroad time, which in turn would be driven by the observation of noon in the nearest station.  For the AOP, that could be Washington or, depending on the date, Brandy Station, City Point, Aquia Creek, or some other such point.

This is all rather far afield from the original cycle under discussion, I suppose, but an example of why the hobby still interests me, and probably will continue to long after my powder burning and marching days are done.

Cupcake,

The USNO site is very handy, and the information is used early and often in the process.  The key point in the regulations quoted above may be these two words "In garrison."  Coming at the start of the sentence, they are all too easy to skip over.  

Considering the number of times we read about armies or portions thereof on the march during the wee hours of the morning, and the comensurate "hurry up and wait" time associated with military movement, it bodes to go back to read about what happened with the day started at 2 or 3 a.m., and I've often wondered about the sequence of bugle calls, myself, at that point. Somewhere in there somebody has to sound at least four or five calls to awaken, account, warn, gather, and move.

You'll also find specific references to who may be rattling around at all hours of the night, too. Among those vampires are typically the cooks who need to be up well before dawn if the lads are going to be fed on time, or if their three days hot rations need to be prepared and issued early in the morning.  This may also play well into the placement of the "kitchens" on the company streets.

Enough of this prattle, the key phrase here is "in garrison," and as Viele spends a lot of time spinning the tale of "on active campaign," life takes a little different twist when in the field.

Mike,

One of the things that has always struck me is how much "time" varies in the reports issued by various commanders during the War. In some cases, I'm sure it's just a memory lapse, but you do have to assume, that in some cases, these guys were using different clock time.

Something else I've noted. You rarely see a specific time shown in orders. It's usually something like "At first Light" or "As soon as possible". The modern military counts time in seconds, a concept that seems foreign to Civil War period officers.