Should have mentioned this conversation started in the Gettysburg thread under Events Discussion.

Annette said: If someone is perfectly happy in a less than correct outfit, who am I to say they can't play if it's not my event or even to judge them because they don't wish to progress any further? ...offer the right information and examples but don't judge someone based on how they wish to enjoy their free time. At one event we may do something "progressive" such as delivering a soldiers' box or offer to write letters and include a group who may not be "authentic". It really is a lot of fun and I think helps bridge the nasty us and them gap.

However (there had to be one) what is good for the goose is good for the gander. One cannot expect an event to lower its standards to meet the enjoyment level of those who do not wish to progress. Nor should those happy with their level of participation poo-poo those who choose to reach a little further.

I think this hobby is flexible enough to offer opportunities for all levels of participation.

Then Hank asked:
Annette Bethke wrote : I have no problem with farb fests; I go knowing exactly what they are but try to stay true to my own standards.

Serious question: how do you do that? Here's where I keep running into the same sticking point:

The group/event decides to do or have somethingthat's inaccurate and yet could be easily avoided by making a more accurate choice. (That's almost the definition of a farb fest, come to think of it.) The problem is, to behave accurately, I would go along with the group, yet to actually do/have the thing would be inaccurate.

How do you deal with that paradox and stay true to your own standards, which presumably means making the more accurate choice whenever possible?

There seems to be no right answer; whichever you choose is blatantly inaccurate, and one choice also makes you run the risk of being ostracized by the group.

I can think of numerous specific examples, if that would help.

Then Annette's answer:
Example: I go to a local event which is basically a heritage festival; my clothes are as correct as I can make them (or at least I think they are), I don't participate in activities that a woman would not have participated in at the time, when I am greeted by people I respond appropriately for the time, any activities I participate in are appropriate for the time (picnics, talks, shopping, etc.). I don't walk around with a churro.  Do I think I'm a person of the time? No. Do I think I'll have a "moment"? Heavens no. But, I do feel I am offering a correct representation of an individual of the time, which is all that I really strive for. If I want a "moment" or to live in 186X, I'll go to an immersion event. And actually, isn't going to a festival a period thing to do? Weren't there jousting parties and other community gatherings in 186x? Some more accurate than others, I would assume.

I feel that one can maintain a high level of authenticity in most areas even if surrounded by farbdom. I don't think it is the venue that necessarily determines your level accuracy but it is yourself. One can be extremely accurate in dress, reaction and speech in the most inaccurate places and visa versa.  

--Last edited by annette bethke on 2009-07-14 17:08:29 --

That is an interesting question Hank, and from reading your posts I see where you have encountered issues.

For me, I find that for the group I participate the most with, we set a progressive standard (always trying to learn more) and keep to that standard at all the events we attend.

If the event has a lower standard we don't lower ourselves to it.  We keep ourselves at our level and work within the framework of the event.

An example, we attended an event this past June.  The event standards weren't very high, but our small mess setup an authentic camp along the woodline.  We didn't have any modern items in our camp, we tried to keep our modern talk to a minimum.  When the camps opened to the public, instead of putting out pickets to "challenge" people, we put them out to direct them to our camp to answer questions and provide demonstrations.  

We tried to keep to proper activities, throwing around a townball, smoking our pipes, taking a nap, etc..

So we were able to enjoy the event at a different level than someone who might have been there to just burn powder.  

First, thanks for moving this to a more general discussion forum.  

Quote :

I feel that one can maintain a high level of authenticity in most areas even if surrounded by farbdom. I don't think it is the venue that necessarily determines your level accuracy but it is yourself. One can be extremely accurate in dress, reaction and speech in the most inaccurate places and visa versa.

In theory, I totally agree. In practice, I'd like to figure out how to do this better. Maybe it's only possible with a small isolated group, like Greg mentions. But even then, one sometimes needs to interact with the larger group.

Here's an example that I'd like to be prepared for, in case it happens in a couple weeks. Don't know that it will, but it's happened in the past when I've portrayed a poor southerner at mainstream events. In this case I'll be portraying an Andersonville prisoner.

Mainstream reenactors typically bring whatever they want, so if you seem to be doing without or complain about a lack of something, they "politely" offer food, shelter, etc., not realizing they're rudely screwing up your weekend. A little generosity is of course perfectly period, but I'm talking about a level that would never have happened in the period; either that amount of stuff wasn't available and/or people who had it couldn't afford to be so generous because they'd be swarmed with beggars.

So... how does a starving person behave accurately while repeatedly turning down offers of food? Or, how does one portray a starving person while accepting and eating seemingly unlimited quantities?

Here's another example, that's happened in the past:

Let's say you're portraying a polite social person in a social-type setting. The kinds of reenactors who like to launch into long modern stories discover that you're a "good listener," come over, sit down and latch onto you, and maybe bring their friends.

Sometimes it can be hilarious to give period answers and watch them never figure it out and they think you're a great guy. But sometimes, they start asking pointed personal questions and grilling you on the answers, and it basically comes down to a contest of wills: they want you to break character to accomodate them and you want them to leave you alone or accept the fact that you're here to portray someone from the past.

When every person you can find is the same way, the only solutions I can find are either to sit silently alone (inaccurate for a polite social person in a social setting, not to mention boring), or give up and act modern (even more inaccurate).

How do you handle those things or manage to avoid them, and keep the same level of accuracy that you'd have at a different kind of event?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Ok. Now I see what you mean. I don't know. Short of coming out of your impression and explaining to them what you are doing and why, or explaining it before hand, I really don't know. It really seems like you've had some bad experiences with some really rude people. I've not experienced a reenactor who purposely tries to bring another participant out of character.

The only solution I can think of is numbers; have a "gang of authentics" (meant very kindly, I assure you) where you will have support from others. Or maybe invite your new found friends to join you in your impression? To attend such an event on ones own and maintain your impression seems like a very daunting task without others to support you or to "translate."

Hank

I can see from those situations that it would be tough to maintain your persona.  I think in the polite example that bringing a person or two with you might help that.  I know that when I did ATB, I went by myself and didn't know anyone there so for me it was a long evening and day as I pretty much kept quiet and to myself.  Which wouldn't make much sense in a company of people that knew each other.

I have come to the conclusion that I need to bring at least 1 person with me to be able to keep myself sane.  The nice thing is that it is a person who will ride to the event with me so we can discuss our plans and what we want to do.  And sometimes this is a conversation that takes place before the event.

I think the issue is trickier for civilians than for a military role because we can do things that keep us from having to interact with the larger group until it is time for the skirmish.

Being part of a small group with higher standards does work well, and I try to do that wherever I go.

But sometimes the reasons I'd like to go to a mainstream/farb event are just because it's local to me but not to anyone else I know, and/or it's on a topic I'm particularly interested. In those cases, I can't and really don't want to find others to drag along, especially if it would mean discouraging them from using their travel budget or time off from attending more accurate events.

Annette wrote:

Quote :

It really seems like you've had some bad experiences with some really rude people. I've not experienced a reenactor who purposely tries to bring another participant out of character.

That amazes me. I can't believe you haven't run into it! While I've met a few rude ones, it seems the majority are just totally clueless that anyone would reenact differently from them. Here's how it usually goes down:

Him: Where are you from?
Me (portraying a CS soldier on the Gettysburg campaign): Lewisburg Virginia.
Him: How long did it take you to get here?
Me (hoping he'll get bored): Oh, a while.
Him: Did you come up the interstate?
Me (still hoping): Uh, we came up through Charleston and then northeast.
Him: Was the traffic bad? How many hours did that take? etc. etc.
Me (realizing he's not going to quit): Actually, I'm from Lewisburg originally, but I've been in the army a couple years. I just go wherever they tell me to march.
Him (still no clue): So where are you living now?
Me (trying to give more clues): Well, we're camped right here, same as you. I've been in the xxth Virginia since I signed up at the start of the war. blah blah Taneytown Road blah blah Yankees blah blah General Lee.
Him: (still no clue): So do you go to a lot of these events?

And the battle of wills is on.  

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Well that is better than rude; at least it wasn't intentional. I really don't have an answer for you when it comes to cluelessness .

As much as those situations may frustrate you, Hank, my own observations lead me to believe that the overall effect benefits the events in particular and the hobby in general.

Organizers can talk about encouraging first person, but nothing seems quite as effective as having someone uncompromisingly first person right there in front of you.  I remember you at McDowell with your fish, and accompanying the bushwackers to the hearing of the military commission.  I also remember you walking barefoot through September Storm, and as the invalid at Winter '64.  Everyone who wanted to do some first person got reinforcement from seeing you, and I suspect that more people held their modern personas in check than otherwise when you were around.

People who would deliberately go out of their way to mess with you are probably seeking a little justification for their own shortcomings in that area.

Or they just like messin' with ya

The only possible downside of your efforts is that the quality of your impression may seem like more of a challenge than others can deal with.  But that's their problem -- I think more folks find it kind of inspiring and I just can't imagine you not doing what you do.

Personally, at each of the events I named -- whether it seemed like it or not -- I really enjoyed having someone to interact with, to the extent that I could.  I don't want to make a fool of myself in those situations, but I do like to use whatever I've picked up that's appropriate.

(One of my favorite moments at W64, which you may or may not remember:  "You brought a clerk along for a reason, right?" )

Greg, it's tough to be in the situation you describe because it's tough to figure out the exact "firper etiquette" when among strangers who know each other and each other's expectations.

I sort of hope that if I can flesh out my "firper finances" research for both US and CS soldiers, everyone can have some easy "portable firper" for events.  I mean, money is something people can always talk about, even if they don't have the time, or skill set, to do the research that the Trents do.  That's assuming that people want to, which I hope is not over optimistic.

Hank,

To echo what Schnapps said, I've had the opportunity to interact with you at a number of event and have always found it an enjoyable, if slightly intimidating experience! I'd suggest if you are attending an event where the majority of the participants are not doing first person and some individual is raining on your parade; you come out of character long enough to explain to him you have no interest in discussing modern topics and why.

Greg,

At events where first person is expected, I've learned to keep my mouth shut. (I know you find that almost imposssible to believe!) I limit my talk to what's happening at that moment. For someone portraying a soldier, that's usually enough.

Bill you hit the nail on the head.

The truth is the vast majority of reenactors don't do first person so they are not expecting to run into someone who is doing it.

Its sort of like bringing a baseball bat to a football, the guys expecting football are confused.

Hank it is a bummer but the fact is the majority of reenactors aren't going to do or understand first person but let me throw this one at you.

The vast majority of spectators don't even know what a first person impression is.  I can't count the number of times I've seen spectators trying to honestly learn something and wind up being totally confused and sometimes even upset by someone in first person who is not willing to come out of character long enough to even explain what is happening.

May I suggest that if you and your fellows want to stay in first person that your picket not only direct people to your camp but also explain to them what is happening with in the camp to avoid confusion.

Might also keep those pesky non-first person reenactors away.

Quote :

Bob 125th NYSVI wrote : The vast majority of spectators don't even know what a first person impression is.  I can't count the number of times I've seen spectators trying to honestly learn something and wind up being totally confused and sometimes even upset by someone in first person who is not willing to come out of character long enough to even explain what is happening.

Y'know, I hear reenactors say that all the time. But in my personal experience, speaking in general, reenactors are more apt to be confused or upset than spectators. I get along with spectators pretty well. They're pretty clever, and pick up on clues fast. In fact, I often prefer to spend time around spectators rather than other reenactors, for that very reason.

I think it's because spectators are used to watching movies or TV or plays, so they have an understanding that when they see someone in a costume, that person will behave like who he appears to be.

Reenactors "unteach" that knowledge and train spectators that they're not really walking into anything as authentic as a movie, even though it may appear that way from a distance.

Reenactors who only attend mainstream events seem to be the most set in their ways, because they know exactly what reenactors are supposed to be like, so their minds are most closed to any variations. Spectators who've been to a lot of events or are significant others of reenactors, are almost like reenactors, while casual spectators get it best.

However, the last few people I can recall actually getting upset with me for not answering their questions on demand were reenactors, not spectators. And I don't mean questions that inconvenienced them like "where's registration?" or whatever (I try to be helpful if there's a practical problem they need help with). I mean questions that were of no importance to them and, on some level, not even any of their business, like: "no, where are you really from?" or "wasn't this a great event? So what event are you going to next?"

Not that it's a big deal--I'm talking a couple reenactors actually upset over three or four years, and I figure that's pretty good odds for any endeavor where you interact with lots of strangers.

But back to the original question: For those who say you can have the same personal standard of accuracy at any event, how do you deal with things like reenactors offering modern conveniences or things unavailable at the time and place in a misguided attempt to help you, when you're deliberately doing without?

Or, how do you deal with things that you'd normally do with others, that you need to do alone, like the fellow who asked on the CW-reenactors forum about how you campaign alone, with no one else to button his shelter half to?

I know that being among a small group of like-minded people is ideal, but I'm curious about those who do it entirely alone.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com  

--Last edited by hanktrent on 2009-07-23 23:17:54 --

Quote :

hanktrent wrote :   But back to the original question: For those who say you can have the same personal standard of accuracy at any event, how do you deal with things like reenactors offering modern conveniences or things unavailable at the time and place in a misguided attempt to help you, when you're deliberately doing without? Hank Trent hanktrent@gmail.com

Hank,

My advice would be exactly the same. Come out of character long enough to nicely explain that you aren't interested in making use of modern anachronisms during events, and why. It wouldn't hurt to thank these folks for their concern.

There's an awful lot of guys, who do a "campaign" impression at Mainstream Events, who are more than happy to take advantage of what's offered by the "Heavy" campers. In my unit, we actually have a name for them, "Camplanners". It's my guess that many of the folks offering you assistance, of one sort or another, are used to dealing with the "Camplanners" in their units.

If, having made your desires known, you still get hassled; all I can say is you're hanging around with the wrong "Streamers".  

Okay, so here's a question that I've been struggling with.  I going to be attending an event this weekend that represents Andersonville prison.  I can document that women visited the prison for short spurts of time, but why are we sitting outside the prison all day long?  As night draws aren't we going to go home and make sure our family's fed, and children put to bed, and all that sort of stuff?

When it rains, or we get bored, or the sun really comes out, why are we still sitting there, again, why not just go home, or do whatever they would have done?  Why just stay at the event?  What do we do?

Just some questions I've been struggling with over the last few days.  Good topic though.

Linda.

Is it possible you could have traveled some distance to get there and have applied to the commander for something and are waiting for a response, never knowing when you will be called? That could explain the day time, perhaps at night you have been unable to find lodgings?

  Hallo!

 While it is not my intention to add a "us versus them, them versus us" element to the discussion, I would a few of my and pards' experiences on the darker side of this subject...

 That being, as Herr Hank has shared:

 "Reenactors who only attend mainstream events seem to be the most set in their ways, because they know exactly what reenactors are supposed to be like, so their minds are most closed to any variations."

  Sooooooo.

 What I would add is the opposite side of the coin about the grief, bullying, and insults Mainstreamers talk about at the hands of some Hard Kewyls and Posers at their events.
 That being the scowls, frowns, mutterings, curse and swear words thinly disguised in lowered voices, dagger eyes, tossed out anatomical insults, references to one's ancestry, and name calling,  invitations to associate with one's own kind, admonitions to leave the event, back turning, walk aways, etc., etc. when one is NOT what "their" expectation of what reenactors should be like because you look differently and are doing some things differently.

 Or as a pard once asked me at an event... "Would you check the back of my coat?  I think several eyes have burned holes in it."

  Again, not trying to put up an "us versus them" thing, just sharing some experiences from the other side of the same coin when things get too negative and hostile when one shows up too far to the "right" for the culture of a particular event.

 And not saying all folks are such, or that there are not folks who are interested, friendly, and even supportive or cooperative with one's impression or efforts.

 Curt

Quote :

Curt Schmidt wrote :   That being the scowls, frowns, mutterings, curse and swear words thinly disguised in lowered voices, dagger eyes, tossed out anatomical insults, references to one's ancestry, and name calling,  invitations to associate with one's own kind, admonitions to leave the event, back turning, walk aways, etc., etc. when one is NOT what "their" expectation of what reenactors should be like because you look differently and are doing some things differently.    Curt

Curt,

Still hanging around with the wrong Streamers?  

I think I can safely say about five percent of the world's population consists of ignorant jerks. This group seems to be pretty well represented in almost every human activity. We can choose to make our assumptions and opinions about other people, based on these jerks - or not.  

While they may be equally aggravating, there's a world of difference between the guy who offers to share his leftover fried chicken, a place to sleep under his fly, or just tries to make conversation; and the guy who's hostile or disparaging.

I do not know if it is acceptable for me to post here ?

Please PM and not make big deal if not and I will go away.

I am one of Bill's %5'er. For the most part, I am utterly repulsive in most social circumstances and very diffcult. I have never been part of a group or  unit (except the SCV for a while but I have been all but excommunicated from them for an unwillingness to vindicate the CS soldier..I want to keep his history avialable for those interested but what the hell do I need to vindicate him for).

I have never been to event with anyone (save for my boy) and have done this going on 10 years now. I am a manistreamer baggy who takes a solo history heavy approach on the fringes of the camps. (if I dont get run off).  I rarely fall in and prefer to hide in the woods and watch.  Lately I have taken a shine to early banjo.

I have done a bit of firper with HT and others and it feels natural to me.  From what others whom I respect in hobby tell me I do it pretty well.  I too get the stupid looks and folks that dont get it but I just keep on doing my thing.

I am only doing two events this year and they were both w/ Jim Butler and I enjoyed them. (if you don't count supporting Jim  for his Westville workday which is really an event as kabuki in 09/09)  

--Last edited by oldkingcrow on 2009-07-25 16:09:05 --

  Hallo!

 "Curt, Still hanging around with the wrong Streamers?"

 Naw...
 I was just offering a missing dimension to the discussion.

 For me personally, I am so elitist and hardcore/authentic I do not even hang around with...
 me.

   

 Curt
 Heretic

Chris,

Welcome back, you are of course welcome here.

It was good seeing you again last weekend up in Atlanta, you really need to come to more of those events. You know me and know I am comfortable in almost any camp. Trust me you are a 5%er but not one of the 5% Bill was referring to, I've shared far too many a campfire with you to allow you to believe that. IMHO there is nothing wrong with being a history heavy person at a stream event and if you are enjoying yourself then you are doing fine. I do think if you would come to more of the events like we had in Atlanta you would find yourself quite at home. Remember any time I am going somewhere solo (without the family), there is an empty seat to my right in the Explorer.

Linda, as to the Andersonville question, That is a good quandry. I think someone hit it on the head when they mentioned what you would be portraying. If you had travelled a long distance to perhaps see a loved one who is incacerated there it may make perfect sense you would be camped nearby. The other option is to leave and come back at night having taken a "room at the local inn" or some such.  

--Last edited by toptimlrd on 2009-07-25 16:35:38 --

RC - thanks alot.  ATL was great. I especially enjoyed playing the period music w/ Kiev on bones.  I had a great deal of interest in the period bnjos from visitors. I am pret much done for the year w/ the exception of Westville in Sept.  I am sitting here working on a shirt (copied from an 1857 minstrel banjo player pic) which is tough cause my vision has yet to fully return and I have to put my face so close to the work I need to constant breaks.

Mrs. Trent - Ransom makes refernce on June 24 to seeing a group of women outside the fence when they buried a CS soldier who accidently shot himself.  As to visitors, highly unlikey as the US forces did not know where Andersonville was and finding it was a target of one of Sherman's forces through ATL.  From my reading on Andersonville and many trips there, I suppose it highly unlikey that women / civlians would be allowed to camp in close proximity to the stockade.