Curt, I like philosophy. If you don't know where you're going, you certainly can't figure out how to get there.  

It occurs to me that there are two authenticity issues here. One is the inevitable problem where modern life meets reenacting, like no houses for civilians, no larger brigade and baggage wagons for soldiers, and so forth.

No matter how accurate an experience an event tries to provide, there's always a limit. Even if the civilians are given houses, the houses have anachronisms. And you can never have enough soldiers, wagons, etc.

History heavy events generally try to work around those issues by providing a premise that minimizes their impact. Civilians are given a reason they can't go home at night, or soldiers are given a reason they're isolated from the other 10,000, or it's worked out so anachronisms can be ignored or imagined with minimal negative impact.

At history lite events, those things aren't really seen as a problem. If everyone's just sitting around under their flies socializing after the battle or going shopping, what does it matter that they're not part of a mile-long column marching in retreat after the battle, or civilians aren't coming out of their basements and checking the damage on their farms and helping the wounded?

Then, more to the point of this thread, there are the things which are immediately and easily solvable if reenactors wanted to solve them. For example, if I'd chosen to be a guard at this weekend's event instead of a prisoner, there were no "pigeon roosts" for the guards to stand on (practical problem) but there were also no guards posted even on the ground most of the time (reenactor choice). No one would have ordered me to stand guard in shifts, even though it would have been simple to do so, yet it would be inaccurate for a private to go to a post without orders and walk away without a relief.

So I think that authenticity limitations exist at every event, but issues like not having a town of Anderson are on a different level than more easily solvable issues, that aren't solved at some events simply because reenactors don't see them as a problem.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

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Bill wrote :  I know nothing about this event, but I'm going to assume it's a Mainstream spectator reenactment.

Bill, here's a link to the event http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13809

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Have the Event Organizers given you any clue what they expect of the civilian participants during the day.

Unfortunately, there weren't really any event rules or guidelines, so it was pretty much anything goes.  But we were fortunate that the US prisoners were all a fine quality of folk who didn't know what to expect when they arrived, but all grouped together for a carpe eventum once the event got underway.

The civilian coordinator unfortunately was unable to attend which left me as the sole civilian at the event, but I was happy just sitting and observing, and picnicing, and that sort of thing.  I would have loved to have interacted with the CS, but they weren't really into that sort of thing.  They had a different goal and I figured live and let live.  

The link above gives some sources that talk about civilians coming to see the prison, but like you said they were primarily southern visitors from the neighboring area come to see the prison.  They were not people who traveled any great distances or anything like that, though I'm sure someone can find an exception to the rule.  

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You also had officer's wives and women selling to the Guards.

Correct, though there again the guards have to be willing to play along.  I went into their camp on Saturday (after the camps were opened), and talked with some of them for about 5 minutes or so.  They responded in a period manner, but then after about five minutes they resumed their previous topics and it became clear that our conversation had ended and I walked away.

So here's another quandry.  Even though I can document some things as having happened, those I need to interact with have to be willing to play along.  So really, when people say that we can
offer a correct representation of an individual of the time regardless the venue, and that we can only worry about ourself. How can we correctly represent a person of the period if we can't do what they would have done?

Okay, that was a complicated paragraph, at least to write.

Linda.

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hanktrent wrote :   My point is, I don't really need to know how to get along by compromising more at mainstream events. Generally, I come away from events satisfied with the experience. That's why I don't personally think the solution is to break character during the event to help out the terminally clueless. (Might work for others, just not my thing.) I'm there to worry about me, and would rather let them do what they want while I do what I want, and just figure out how to minimize their impact on me. The problem is, it's hard to only worry about yourself, when someone is in your face, expecting you to interact with them the way they want. Some response is necessary. Bernie saw how I handled the guard this weekend who had no clue why an Andersonville prisoner would want food more than money when "Ramen noodles are only 25 cents at the grocery," or why I wasn't thrilled to borrow his cigarette lighter. I dealt with it, the guard was just as happy, but no compromise required on my part, either. Bill, was it you or someone else who said that if I reenacted with your unit and tried to be too "hardcore" for the event (i.e. getting damp in a shebang when there was a non-appropriate-for-the-scenario wall tent to stay dry in) that I'd be teased? Friendly teasing, yes, but still, what if I didn't want to be teased solely for trying to do my best? I'd be forcing my reenacting style on them if I asked them to stop the teasing, since friendly teasing of hardcores is apparently what they like to do. I wouldn't expect other reenactors to change their style for me any more than I want to change mine for them. Hank Trent hanktrent@gmail.com

Hank,

You do and have complained about the "Clueless" getting in your face and making it difficult to remain in First Person. My suggestion was solely on how to reduce these unwelcome intrusions.

In regard to my home unit, Company B, 4th. Texas. Yeah, you'd most likely get kidded. Not because you were trying to be more authentic, but because you were there. Nobody gets a break. They wrote a song about me, "The Ode to the Anal". I also have a unique belly laugh, the boys love to mimic. I can't tell you the number of times, I've been in front of a battalion formation and the boys break out in song, or the "Rodman laugh". Last year, at Gettysburg, they locked me in a Porta-Potty right before the Picket's Charge scenario. (Eventually, they let me out!)

By the same token, they would never knowingly try to mess up another reenactor's experience. But you, or somebody, would have to tell them not to get on your case. Like I said in an earlier post, a quick thirty second discussion of what you were trying to do would solve your problems with the 4th. Texas and I believe, many other units.  

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Bill wrote :   Like I said in an earlier post, a quick thirty second discussion of what you were trying to do would solve your problems with the 4th. Texas and I believe, many other units.

I don't know how to explain this. In practice, it's clear to me, but it's hard to get it across by typing on a message board.

I'm not interested in telling other people how to reenact, nor am I interested in lowering my accuracy more than I already do during events. Following that suggestion would make me do both of those things.

And in my experience, the alpha* people won't care even if they do have it explained, the ones who do care will "get it" without modern explanations, and the rest don't need to understand because they'll be blissfully clueless in a way that really doesn't matter.

But what I'm curious about is... are you speaking hypothetically, or do you have someone in mind who has actually done this? Has someone attended events alone with the 4th Texas or other units you're familiar with (by alone, I mean without pre-planning a specific more-accurate weekend with one or more other individuals) and successfully tried to portray a 19th century person throughout an event to the best of their ability, while dealing with comrades reenacting on a less accurate level?

In my experience, it's unusual for people to do that even at c/p/h events, let alone at mainstream events, so that I'm curious who's done it and would like to hear about it from their point of view. If it's just hypothetical, well, the internet is full of hypothetical advice.  

*Can't think of a better word than "alpha," but I mean the type of people who like to dominate interactions, don't have much interest in looking at things from others' viewpoints, and don't put a high priority on others' needs, although they're not actually "rude" about it; in fact, if they're in a social group where everyone has the same goals, most people consider them outgoing and friendly, the life-of-the-party types.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Linda, You can't. My previous statement was under the impression and ass-u-me-d that others are at events with others who share your level of participation. One cannot expect to be able to participate in first person without some understanding on the part of others as to what you are doing and a desire on the part of others to participate. One cannot expect what one does not ask for. If one attends an event that is not indicated as a full blown immersion, one cannot expect other participants to play at the same level; others willing to participate at your level must be involved. I can't go to a ping-pong tournment wanting to play tennis and expect to accomodated. I can go find a wall to play against, but that is all I should expect.  

So, I revise: A group (2 or more) can maintain their authenticity level regardless of the event. If you go solo, you can only maintain your authenticity level in relation to things you have control over. Either way you may be isolated.

Hallo!

 "...One cannot expect what one does not ask for. If one attends an event that is not indicated as a full blown immersion, one cannot expect other participants to play at the same level; others willing to participate at your level must be involved. I can't go to a ping-pong tournment wanting to play tennis and expect to accomodated. I can go find a wall to play against, but that is all I should expect.  

So, I revise: A group (2 or more) can maintain their authenticity level regardless of the event. If you go solo, you can only maintain your authenticity level in relation to things you have control over. Either way you may be isolated."

 As a former professional behaviorist...  Control is an illusion.  And the only person one can attempt to control is oneself.

 Then, I find myself in the same situation/category/dilemma or opinion(?)as Herr Hank or Frau Linda...

 IMHO, isolation is the end result when as Herr Rideout says on another board... "does not know one's lane."

 Meaning, it cannot be done.  Not to imply superiority or attempt to lay claim to what is better or best- but a major league ball player cannot play at a middle school baseball or footbal game.
 What we have is the failed interaction between different cultures.

 If I have to first explain to those around me and then wait or gauge what I can do based upon their level of understanding, Mental Pictures, or even desire to "play along" and be cooperative if not receptive-  I would sooner not attend that event and prefer to as birds of a feather, pigs, and swine do, flock together and line up crows on a different telephone line.

 Not trying to be negative, critical, cynical, or too much burned out but the daze of solo "excursions" or even with a like-minded pard for me have past.
 I can "Suspend Disbelief" to the extent that modernREcreation forces us to do. BUT, if my impression is based upon a need to have others near or at a certain level for me to be able to "ply my craft" then I either have to be at the mercies of others in giving and taking in the back-and-forth of social or historical intereaction, or go about my "performance" or even "soliloquy" solo.

 My cop out is not taking coal to Newcastle. Or trying to impose my Mental Picture of living history on others who do not want to mentally or physically share in it.

 And that is perhaps the sad part.  By not asking whether lads or lassies 'want to play,' it prejudges folks to the negative.
However, we become creatures of our experiences, and gain a sense or ability to see by the lack of reaction and interaction,
body language, facial expression, micro expression, comments,  disinterest, and rejection who is on board or not.

 But, it can be hard to get over, or past, the...

 "Hi.  My name is Curt. I would like to portray "X" as a First Person Impression as a "Y" in here in July of 1863.  Anyone here want to interact in First Person with me?

 I realize this is philosophical, and not perhaps Tips 1-10 that the thread may be seeking.  And may be the trials and tribulations of certain Mental Picture's realities not an issue or problem for others.

 For me personally, I am thinking if not teetering next year or so on giving up soldiering for the civilian side of the War.  But, I fear that I have not the wit, craft, skill, or patience of the Trents to swim in the waters of the civilian world without drowning miserably and washing up on the shore.

 

 Curt  

--Last edited by Curt Schmidt on 2009-07-31 20:26:34 --

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Curt Schmidt wrote : For me personally, I am thinking if not teetering next year or so on giving up soldiering for the civilian side of the War.  But, I fear that I have not the wit, craft, skill, or patience of the Trents to swim in the waters of the civilian world without drowning miserably and washing up on the shore.

But the good news is, if you want to go civilian, we can suggest places to go where everybody really does want to do it the same way, and it'll be an easier transition.

Come on down to the Westville event in Georgia and stay at the boarding house we'll be running, in the fall of 2010. You might need to dodge some places in town at some times, but in general, it works, and even people who are out of character know what should be going on.

Or come as a civilian with me to In The Van: Trailing Kirby Smith next July, where I want to do the same as our little ad hoc group did at Into the Piney Woods, and that worked well. Seriously, if you're interested in this kind of thing as a civilian, email me!

Oh, and by the way, what are you doing Aug. 18-22 (a few weeks from now)? I'm guiding a couple fellows who are going timber cruising in 1859 southern Ohio and I could always use a friend to meet on the way and bring along.  ;)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com  

--Last edited by hanktrent on 2009-07-31 22:48:31 --

  Howdy!

  Herr Hank... thanks for the invite, but it looks like I am going to be in Arkansas for a spell starting tomorrow.

  Regards,

  Curt

 

Hank,

I'm trying to talk my bride into coming to Westville for that event in 2010. She really needs to dip her toe into the authentic end of the hobby. I'm trying to nudge her to finish putting together her basic kit, she has a great start but needs a second dress and a few finishing touches like a bonnet and a few more utilitarian items. Maybe I can ge her talking to Linda.

Mr. Collett- You might also encourage her to join the Sewing Academy at Home forum: http://thesewingacademy.org/ You'll have help with your nudging and she'll have support, encouragement, and inspiration in getting her projects done.. and an apreciative audience for pictures of her completed projects.

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toptimlrd wrote : Hank, I'm trying to talk my bride into coming to Westville for that event in 2010. She really needs to dip her toe into the authentic end of the hobby. I'm trying to nudge her to finish putting together her basic kit, she has a great start but needs a second dress and a few finishing touches like a bonnet and a few more utilitarian items. Maybe I can ge her talking to Linda.

Westville 2010 will be a good event. I'd be more than happy to correspond with your wife, though truth be told the Sewing Academy site would be the best for clothing.  Clothing is not my forte.  

I'm not sure what clothing she currently has, but one dress is all she really needs.  I seldom change dresses during an event, unless I'm portraying the super upper crust. Though I do usually change into a nightgown and that sort of thing.  I'm not sure what kind of role she'd want to do, but a good working class impression basically needs a comfortable pair of shoes and stockings (as she'll be on her feet a lot), corset, chemise, two to three petticoats (well starched), a simple work/wash dress, and a slat bonnet, and a wool apron (I recommend wool when working around a fire).    

But the first thing she'll need to do is decide (with the help of the organizers) who she'll be for the weekend.  This will tell her what she needs to get ready.  Though most often organizers will work around the clothing that the participant already has.  

Of course the clothing is only a small part of preparing for an event like Westville -- I have access to Ancestry.com and would be happy to help her (and you, I presume?) to find out more about the people that you are given to portray.  I would also be happy to help her with how to do first person, and how to stay in character kind of stuff.  Now that's more my forte.  

Anyway, let me know what she needs, and I will be more than happy to help in any way that I can.  Just have her contact me at
** email protg **  For what it's worth, our characters will be pretty low class, and according to the census we are both illiterate.  

We're working still working on our characters, so we may have to make a few changes here and there; but we're hoping not.

Linda Trent

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hanktrent wrote :   But what I'm curious about is... are you speaking hypothetically, or do you have someone in mind who has actually done this? Has someone attended events alone with the 4th Texas or other units you're familiar with (by alone, I mean without pre-planning a specific more-accurate weekend with one or more other individuals) and successfully tried to portray a 19th century person throughout an event to the best of their ability, while dealing with comrades reenacting on a less accurate level? In my experience, it's unusual for people to do that even at c/p/h events, let alone at mainstream events, so that I'm curious who's done it and would like to hear about it from their point of view. If it's just hypothetical, well, the internet is full of hypothetical advice.   Hank Trent hanktrent@gmail.com

Hank,

Very interesting question. I know for a fact, that guys from the 4th. Texas have interacted quite sucessfully with folks doing a first person impression, while maintaining our usual behavior among ourselves. The McDowells and some of the Recon events come quickly to mind. In fact, I remember the guys interacting with you at one of the events.

Of course, they knew what to expect prior to these events and reacted accordingly. I have no reason to believe they would act any different, with an individual actually staying in our camp.