Since this is the Common Ground forum I thought this appropriate.  I have really liked the NSA events in the west.  At least they TRY to improve mainstream events and have some level of enforced standards.  Will these events live up to C/P/H events? No. However, very few campaigners now support their events.  How do we expect improvement when c/p/h guys won't attend an event where mainstreamers are at least trying to (or forced to) do better?  It actually seems like the c/p/h community works actively to schedule events during or close to NSA events???  In any case, the AOP will have a Federal, campaigner battalion at Mill Springs. SCAR will have a company there. Uncommon Ground for sure!

Jim

Those folks have a simple formula. Follow some simple to meet guidelines or don't show up. And, the participants do something they won't do here in the East. They've figured out by making some simple concessions, you get a better, more enjoyable event. And, folks attedn in decent numbers.

Over to you Bill...LOL!  

--Last edited by grumpydave on 2007-08-03 16:22:04 --

Quote :

How do we expect improvement when c/p/h guys won't attend an event where mainstreamers are at least trying to (or forced to) do better?

Well, I don't know any of the politics etc. involved, so it's got to be more complicated than this... but why don't the people who do attend, just improve up to c/p/h level themselves if that's what they want at the event? Why is it necessary to bring in outsiders to do it for them?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Quote :

Jim wrote :It actually seems like the c/p/h community works actively to schedule events during or close to NSA events???

Okay, so you win.

The great Campaigner-Progressive-Hardcore Event Scheduling Conspiracy and Cover Up (CPHESCACU)has been discovered. This subsversive, underground, quasi-criminal element has marshaled forces numbering in the tens of thousands of living historians to insure the great failure of mainstream events, such as the various N/SA offerings.  How do they do this? Well, with history as an ally, members of various fraternal lodges under CPH domination insert secret message in fresh baked pies, thus getting the word out to cooperating organizations, units, messes, and individuals as to how to hold their events as close to N/SA offerings as possible. As proof of this, one need only look at the sinister International Workers of the World involvment with the establishment of Labor Day in early September, and that danged ol' barbeque eatin' Columbus fellow having his own holiday in October.

Happy now?

Brother, the laughs here never end.  

"How do we expect improvement when c/p/h guys won't attend an event where mainstreamers are at least trying to (or forced to) do better?"

Wellsir, it's because the folks here in the East are very happy with the product they're buying and don't want to see their product change. If the product changes, they don't buy it, er go; period. C/P/Her's want nothing to do with the product and are tired trying to change it. So, they go their happy way to the C/P/H store and buy a product that's suits them. Chris Anders, with the help of some pretty darned good folks have made an effort to change events and well, they are better. I've been there. But, the buying majority are still spending their money elsewhere, mainly because, they aren't willing to make even the smallest concession in the way they currently do things. Besides, none of them are allowed by their unit leadership to think freely or, use the intrenet.

Charles, that was really funny. How do I join?  

--Last edited by grumpydave on 2007-08-03 20:18:38 --

Quote :

Charles, that was really funny. How do I join?

Grumpy, as former Potomac Legion Grand Poobah, you should still have your secret EBUFU acronym decoder ring, 3D glasses, missionary work deflector cape, one bottle of Ethiopian Tonic, and a lifetime supply of magic green lantern fuel.  

Easy guys, remember civility is the rule on this forum. This need not break down into an us vs. them which it appears headed toward and if it does, it will go to the dungeon of threads forgotten      I for one don't believe there is anything intentional going on between different facets of the hobby to damage the other. On any given weekend it seems there are any number of events going on so we simply have to choose which ones we wish to attend. I am in an even bigger delimma at times as I belong to two groups so what do I do if they have different events on the same weekend or worse, both schedule themselves to be at the same event?

As to mainstream events trying to imporve, bully for them. I do see more and more mainstreamers going for the better impressions while maintaining an admittedly mainstream camp with hidden cots and coolers. As a fence sitter and having friends on both sides of the hobby I understand this. Living like a soldier 24 - 7 for a weekend is not necessarily everyone's cup of tea. I have friends who are not able to march like they used to, need more support for bad backs, etc. All I ask at a mainstream event is that when in the public eye that we make every attempt to do it "right"; that is: know how to drill, keep anachronism's out of site, keep it down at night when I am trying to sleep, have a reasonable kit (leave the bagpipes, kilt, hillbilly hat, etc at home) and dont screw it up for others there.

When I go to an event I set my expectations based on the standards of the event. If the standards are so low I can't enjoy it, I simply don't go.

Robert, not only did you miss the great parody, but you also may have missed Jim's identity, thus the entire joke.  

Charles,

No, I got it which is why I didn't do more, it was mainly a warning to everyone else who may not have understood not to continue down the path. Unfortunately some may not have understood it and continued with it to the point where it became us vs. them. I for one always enjoy your rapier like wit in such things. When we look at some other forums it's easy to go from a little chain pulling to an all out donnybrook. I just want to make sure people who are new here don't think we are just like all the others out there when it comes to us vs them type issues. Carry on.    

--Last edited by toptimlrd on 2007-08-04 18:14:03 --

Hmm,

Charles, didn't you call this "re-inventing the wheel" some years back?  

As guru, I established the identity as per our own rules.  No biggie though, Jim makes this point from time to time.  Same responses...same babble, but always fun to watch.

     

Quote :

toptimlrd wrote :   I for one don't believe there is anything intentional going on between different facets of the hobby to damage the other. On any given weekend it seems there are any number of events going on so we simply have to choose which ones we wish to attend. I am in an even bigger delimma at times as I belong to two groups so what do I do if they have different events on the same weekend or worse, both schedule themselves to be at the same event?

Bob,

You are going to put me out of business as resident "fence sitter". I'm scheduled for three events in September and two events in October. There's a third event in October I'd like to attend, but my wife is taking me to a wedding that weekend. I've learned to know when to just say "Yes Dear". These events are all over the place in regards to authenticity. I'll be taking a fly to one event; a wedge tent, cot and cooler to another; and just a pack to two more events. My Grand Kids are attending the fifth event, which means I'll be taking two tents and enough stuff for three general's headquarters.

I'll have a great time at all these events, because I go expecting different things from the events I attend. After twenty years in the Hobby, I pretty much know what to expect, and I'm rarely disappointed.

I say rarely disappointed, because there are events I've attended once and won't go back for a second time.

That's OK Bill, you will always be "The Original". I have a situation next month where I am going to an event with the 8th Fl / 13th IN and the Armory Guards just announced they would send a contingent to that mainstream event as well. I am also opening up a sutler tent (fortunately the wife is coming to play shopkeeper while I just play ). I already committed to my mainstream group and I've been with them a while so needless to say I will stay with them. They are the ones who got me into reenacting and the Armory Guards are the ones who took me to the dark side. Both are filled with great guys and even the mainstream group has a number of "fence sitters" in it as well.

Ken,

You nailed it. Wheel go round and round. I ought to save my snappy answer for the next time this cycles around -- say in about 90 days (or less).

Charles,

It's my guess that Fence Sitters, like Bob and I, actually attend more of the authentic events then any number of the Keyboard Commandos, who piss and moan about the Mainstream side of the Hobby on a regular basis.  

It is all in the marketing or which hard-kewl attends the carpe-eventum. "Look 'Billy Bob' is going to the Battle of 'Bubba Hill' mainstream event, so it must be cool to do a carpe eventum there.  Next month..."Look 'Donnie Darko' is going to the Battle of "Grits Station'...I ain't going to that farb-fest.  See what I mean.  
Honestly, I go where the rest of my pards are going and where they voted to go. Majority of the time it is a c/p/h event, but there a few times they want to go to a 'better' mainstream event for various reasons. I don't consider this missionary work, more like trying to support mainstreamers on the occassion that they actually have event where at least some improvement takes place.
I truly have not brought this topic up in any recent timeframe I can remember. I am just trying to figure out if it is a kewl thing to do today? Not that I always go with flow and I certainly will never get accused of being a lemming. And nope not a conspiracy theorist either...just checking the c/p/h pulse on occassion. Man that seems to stir things up! I guess I just need to await my next death threat.

Jim Butler

I'm in the know about the upper level politics in the NSA.  Accordingly, I cannot talk about 'em.  However, I can make a few general remarks about things I've noticed in the NSA.

Numbers are down as streamers have voted with their feet to support their local ham-n-yam instead of one, quality, large event.  Many have left because they didn't like the new standards in the former FCD, now AoT.  Many howled at the thought of standards and having to meet them.

An irony is that the bulk of these folks who left met standard.  They just didn't like idea of meeting a standard, even if they passed muster.  There was much groveling about the hypothetical poor reenactor who only owned a single pair of sky blue pants and how he was going to be yanked forceably from the ranks by Gen. Moore's goon squad.  

Another irony involved the standards themselves.  Where did Gen. Moore get the juevos to impose standards without conferring with the rank and file?  Since folks - who already met standard - didn't personally approve the standards, they weren't going to be throttled by them.  Before Gen. Moore became the commander of the old FCD, the brigade commanders with consent of the battalion commanders approved a set of pretty basic standards.  Gen. Moore had the audacity to enforce the previously approved standards.  

I, as a member of the general's staff and assigned to watch for irregularities, can state that we did not change a single word in the standards or even move a comma.  The standards are those which existed before Gen. Moore became commander.  However, the fiction that we wrote standards wholesale without asking anyone before hand sounds much better than fact.

The free wheeling days of Franklin are long gone.  The numbers were big, but there two many reenactors who didn't meet standard.  Also, there were a few sublevel commanders who broke scenario.  The days of anyone who wants to join us under the circus tent are gone.  Gen. Moore has chosen quality over quantity and cracked down on cowboy-ism.  This has caused folks to go elsewhere.  

Some have tried to portray Gen. Moore as some kind of monster when he's just the opposite.  He cares.  He has worked hard to make better events for the men in the ranks.  Unfortunately, many prefer to continue doing what they've always done even when they say they want better events.  I've found you can lead a thirsty horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

As far as scheduling of Mill Springs, we moved our usual date to the last weekend in September to avoid a conflict with the other event in Kentucky : Perryville.  Back to back weekends for Mill Springs and the Chickamauga LH will knock out participation by some good folks, but there aren't that many people who would have gone to Chickamauga even without the conflict.

The consecutive weekends has allowed me to attend a pair of events on consecutive weekends when I am normally able to fly east for only one event at a time.  I've been referring to this trip as the Chick-n-mill tour.  

This is my take on the state of reenacting on the east side of the Big Scarey Mountains. I know other people's mileage will vary. The CPH side of the Hobby is healthy, but it's not growing. The largest pure CPH event I'll attend this year will have around 150 participants. As far as I know, that's about as big as they get.

The "big" event seems to be going away. Cedar Creek will most likely be the biggest event of 2007. There are lots of reasons for the decline of the big events, land, costs, liability, Hobby politics, multiple events and lack of sponsors have all played a role. Makes it tough for big organizions, like the ANV.

There hase been a lot more interest in local events. The price of gas is a factor, but the pure enjoyment of these events has also been a factor. There are a lot of reenactors who want to attend "family friendly" events, and just because an event allows civilians doesn't make it family freindly.

The "middle of the road" events seem to be getting a lot of attention. These Mainstream event with enforced rules and regulations are the growth industry of the Hobby. Of course, these events have their own problems, since they please nobody completely.

Participation seems to be a problem across the board. Getting people, who call themselves reenactors, to actually attend a reenactment is a never ending problem.  
   

Why Silas!  You're looking well in your avatar.

Hi Silas ,Good Gracious, my good man you look positively green around the gills.Does eating all that salt pork do that to you?
Maybe you just need a long pull on a bottle of "Oh - be - joyfull".

Hello Ken, You had me going to the dictionary on "avatar". That is a new one on me.

Thanks for all the postings. It makes good reading and I am learning alot.

Pvt. Dan Girton (Sink Rat) Co. A , 6th Ohio

What are you talking about?  That's me in real life.  Rains so much here in Seattle that I've turned green from the mold, plus I've joined the local Berdan unit.  Everyone else is green with envy.

Regarding the conversation at hand, Bill's got a solid point :

Quote :

Of course, these ["middle of the road"] events have their own problems, since they please nobody completely.

That's exactly the problem I've seen.  How much is enough ; how much is too much?  Push out one group because we want a bottom line standard, but push the other away because we're not going far enough.