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chatrbug wrote : ive been studying about female spies also.. more so the smuggling of medicine from the north to the south. at some point this winter one of my petticoats will end up with a secret pocket in it.

I've often wondered how one would interpret with a secret pocket in a petticoat.  Of course in the period ladies did it, and when caught by the enemy if they were suspected they would be forced to undergo rather embarrassing searches that we as 21st century ladies would consider rude and vulgar today.  

When I attended more mainstream style tacticals ladies portraying spys would hide things in their hidden petticoat pockets, and the soldiers (and really the ladies as well) were too embarrassed to have a true search so she usually got away.  Though rules of engagement later began to allow soldiers to lift a lady's skirts no higher than the knee, and if she was hiding something it had to be located in her skirts below the knee. Of course now a days at the immersion style events soldiers are expected to know to get a sympathetic lady to do the search.

But how would one interpret hidden pockets in the petticoat to the public?  Where were the hidden pockets usually found?  Near the waist? down low?  Personally, I'd probably want it up within arms length so as I'm moving from place to place I can easily feel the items are still there.  But that's just my point of view.  But when interpreting to the public would you lift your skirts to show them where the pocket is?  

Just one of those things I've often wondered about, but never really researched.

Linda.

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Linda Trent wrote :   But when interpreting to the public would you lift your skirts to show them where the pocket is?

Linda,

I recently attended a non-first person living history and a lady did a presentation where she stripped down to show the various layers of a lady's undergarments. I think she started out in drawers and a shift and added layers. I don't know for sure, since we period males didn't hang around to gawk. I know she was still wearing a lot more clothing than her audience when she started the presentation!

i have found someone that has a petticoat that has a pocket in it... it may not have been for smuggling, but perhaps keeping valuables safe while traveling.. but i have the dimensions...

its on the inside of the petticoat on the right side. starts about one foot from the bottom of your fingertips and is about 10" wide and 16" deep, it stops about 6 inches from the bottom of the petticoat, then the opening is on the side. the petticoat is a very busy 1840s print.

bill... isnt it funny how our undergarments are so much more covering than most clothes today.

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Bill wrote :I recently attended a non-first person living history and a lady did a presentation where she stripped down to show the various layers of a lady's undergarments.

Good point!  I just can't imagine a lady raising her skirts in tent city though. It's different in a presentation than it is in the interpretive area (and I mean first or third).

Of course the other thing I was thinking was that an interpreter could have a displayed petticoat with a hidden pocket.  I've seen some really good displays done that way.

But for first person tacticals at mainstream events or for suspected espionage in the immersion arena, either way I think it would be extremely awkward for a man to have to search a lady.

I was also thinking, and I'm wondering if Dulcie's correct (that the one she's seen is more for hiding one's money or something when she's traveling.  I was thinking a spy would be more apt to, when necessary, cut through fields and woods to keep from being detected and/or searched.  A pocket too low would be awkward to walk with, and should it smash against a log or a rock well, so much for the bottle of laudanum.  But it's still an interesting question.

Something low on the petticoat will also swing more and knock into the skirts whereas something carried higher up would tend to swing less.  I'm just using logic here, nothing to back this up, other than 17 years experience in wearing CW era dresses.    

Just throwing out some thoughts as I get ready to step back in time tomorrow to 1888.  Yep, reenacting 25 year anniversaries.    

Emilen Jamison Pigott--- helped the confederacy with smuggling and spying...  in 1865 she was captured... she had on her 30lbs of contraband under her hoop. contraband included candy, boots, shirt, pants, toothbrushes, combs and a bunch of other things.   i suppose she overloaded this time and that was why she was caught!

women petticoats usually werent checked when they were going along. im not sure if most went through fields and the such. ive been researching and have only found a few examples of the secret pockets.

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chatrbug wrote : Emilen Jamison Pigott--- helped the confederacy with smuggling and spying...  in 1865 she was captured... she had on her 30lbs of contraband under her hoop. contraband included candy, boots, shirt, pants, toothbrushes, combs and a bunch of other things.

Dulcie,

Her undergarmet pocket must have been the size of a Federal Double Bag Pack.  

she had them tied to her cage alls i can think is that would be sooo hard to walk. my cage is already slightly heavy. many smugglers also tied things to their cages.

!!

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she had them tied to her cage  alls i can think is that would be sooo hard to walk. my cage is already slightly heavy. many smugglers also tied things to their cages.

Simply amazing...I couldn't imagine carrying stuff on my cage..or in my cage...whichever. Seems that females were in better shape then, compared to now, and they say the 21st century is better? Hogwash, I do belive it has made us lazier. haha..that's another subject all together!

Oh and Chatrbug, nifty idea on the pocket on your petticoat. That would be pretty useful when my little one is finally able to attend reenactments. I would be able to keep little tissues or something of the sort...of course I would keep it period...but it would just be one more thing not in my hands, so if I had to give chase to the little one (more then likely would!) I'd have just what I needed.

And it's also refreshing to see someone else interested in female spies. They are so intriguing. Awe-inspiring to say the least. I am really enjoying learing all I can about them. I also hope to one day be able to acurately (spelling..grr) portray one. I think it would be simply awesome

im working on a portrayal of one hopefully at old bedford village come june. i need to find some medical units on both sides that would be willing to work out something though. i think its one of those things that the public doesnt know a lot about, and it would be a great learning experience.

Dulcie-
 Let me know how your research goes..and eventually how your portrayal goes. I am curious to know how it would all unfold,and just how you would go about portraying something such as that. It would very much be a wonderful learning experience. Something new that most would not expect. Gives a ceartin air of mystery, highly intoxicating in my opinion.

ive got a book on order from amazon, i cant recall the name right now, but it has a lot of info in it too. we will see how much i can get off it.

im hoping i can get a bit more expertise on this as to how to actually pull it all off. its actually not a very researched part.

after doing a seach on ac i found this...

the one petticoat in a museum  was a quilted petticoat. made of cotton print fabrics with criss cross lines of stitches. the widely spaced rows from channels in which one can insert folded documents.

I'm curious how you would get caught. With items well-concealed in your petticoat, what would prompt a military officer to search you that thoroughly while presumably not searching under the dresses of other women who passed by in the real 1860s (or who were reenacting at the event)? I know you'd pre-arrange the fact that you were the one to be searched and caught, but I'm talking from an 1860s point of view. How *were* female smugglers typically caught?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Did a quick search in the ORs, and found this report of smugglers getting through, and getting caught. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fwaro%2Fwaro0101%2F&tif=01292.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DANU4519-0101

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

there ya go perhaps have a few lines set up to do some searching. going back and forth a few times, after a few times then get caught.

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I am really enjoying learing all I can about them. I also hope to one day be able to acurately (spelling..grr) portray one. I think it would be simply awesome

I remember at Carnifex Ferry some 15 years ago I portrayed a spy on the tactical course.  I had a basket full of corn and one of the ears had the husk pulled away just enough to hide a message under it.  

Several groups came through and inquired as to my reason for being there and they believed me.  Then the last group came through.  The captain became curious about my corn and had the soldiers check it.  They husked nearly every ear, but not the one with the note.  They found nothing on me and let me pass.

Such is the life of a spy; never knowing just when (or if) they'll get captured, and just when the good Lord is watching over them and the troops stop short of husking the right ear.  Needless to say I reported back to the "tactical tally man" that only the last group husked any of the ears, but missed the one with the note.  People didn't trust me after that.  I wonder why.  

Linda Trent
lindatrent@zoomnet.net

Linda,
 Thank you for sharing that experience with me. It's nice to see that there are times and places for a portrayal of a female spy. It's funny that there is an actual abundance on female spies/smugglers information on the internet, and in books and magazines. As a matter of fact, I have a past copy of the Civil War historian where my significant other is on the front cover, and one of the main articles was that on Belle Boyd.
   I find it fascinating to find all this information, although they weren't widely known. Maybe I am wrong, and there were more of them then I realize. I am not sure. I am still researching intensely.
    Linda, question: with your ears of corn...did they all look alike? Meaning the one that contained the secret message? I know you said that one of them had the husk pulled back enough to slide a message inside. However, I am curious to know if that one had the husk pulled back, was it noticable? Makes me wonder how they didn't figure out which one would have been suspect.

And I am also curious to know how they were caught...other then messages being passed down from officers and such. Would they have been searched? It seems a bit uncouth given that they were very conservative then. But I guess in times of war, manners tend to go out the window?
  Goodness...this is all so fascinating. I think I could spend all night learning about this. Instead I will take it one day at a time.

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chatrbug wrote : there ya go perhaps have a few lines set up to do some searching. going back and forth a few times, after a few times then get caught.

I've got to remember this is at a mainstream event, where things are different. Ironically, I'm working out something vaguely similar as a participant for an upcoming event (not smuggling, but a situation where one doesn't want one's secret discovered by a particular side), and I'm thinking of all the similar logistic issues involved with smuggling. But where you're doing a short, pre-planned, isolated scenario, none of them matter.

For example, if the historic situation is one in which everyone is searched due to general high suspicion, then that means that every female reenactor will need to accept a potential search under her dress for the duration of the event. When everyone knows they're signing up for an event where tensions are high and rules of engagement include that, they'll all cooperate, but good luck springing that on participants who aren't expecting it!

And then, what if you get caught? Historically, it could mean being arrested and kept in confinement until one's trial, and one would need to resign oneself to that as a possible outcome, spending the last 24 hours of the event, or whatever, under guard and confined, with your family only allowed to visit you with supervised permission.

For what I'm thinking of, we know tensions are high, and we know the potential of arrest and confinement, and it's all part of what we're expecting, and we'll be doing our best not to get caught but if it happens, it happens. It requires a different mindset for planning something like that, than for planning a short pre-arranged scenario that doesn't need to be in context with the all the participants or continue in real time for the duration of the event.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

An interesting fact about McDowell is that Mrs. Hull was not only housing Rev. Price, who was the head of the local militia and passed important information on to the Confederates, but she also housed a couple of girls (Mollie MacLeod and Abby Kerr) who were infamous spies for the Confederacy.

You'll probably find that there were quite a number of spies from both sides, male and female.  However, one thing to keep in mind is that not every situation would be appropriate for a spy. They're kind of like female soldiers, yes there were some, but not at every battle.  

With the tactical course that I mentioned, where I did the spy with the ears of corn, the goal is to set up situations where the military meets civilians and then has to figure out if you're a friend or foe, and it's all done in first person.  It wasn't based on anything historic.  But the goal of a tactical is to make the military think about who, what, when, where, and why they're running across this person and they have to be quick thinking.

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with your ears of corn...did they all look alike?

Yes, each ear was exactly like the others, again, the goal was not to get caught.  If I was portraying Rose Greenhow the day she got caught, it would be a different story.  

The one with the message in it did have to have the husk peeled back some in order to get the message placed inside, but I did try to smooth it back down to make it look no different than any of the others.  I had it on the bottom of the basket where I knew which one had the note, but no one else did.

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Makes me wonder how they didn't figure out which one would have been suspect.

The point is, they didn't even know that one should be suspect, or that I was in fact a spy!  They were just doing a random search when they came upon me.  The captain decided to order the men to check the ears.  Remember a spy's goal is not to get caught.  

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Would they have been searched? It seems a bit uncouth given that they were very conservative then. But I guess in times of war, manners tend to go out the window?

Ideally there would be some loyal lady that the soldiers would take the suspect to, providing there was time. But if that's not a possibility and the lady gives the soldiers reason to believe she may be a spy, I have little doubt that they'd search her. Just like we could get stopped and searched going through security at airports.  Preserving his own life and that of his comrades took precedence over etiquette.

As to being conservative back then? Well, um, 'boys will be boys' and not all soldiers were gentlemen as is evidenced in the book, "Stories the Soldiers Wouldn't Tell," by Thomas P. Lowry.  The book tells quite a bit about ladies of the evening and that sort of thing.  I was also amazed lately to see a catalog of dirty items that soldiers (and civilians) could send away for that contained two 8 x 10 pages of erotica!

Just a few points,

Linda Trent
lindatrent@zoomnet.net