Quote :

Bev Simpson wrote on looking forward to 2008:  One of the things I would like to discuss is our age vs. what we know. An example, matches not being invented until 1849, would people of an adult age in 1860 not know how to start a fire with flint and steal? There are other examples, this is just one that came to mind first. I would suppose there are many other things we should know. Anyone else have any ideas? I think little details improve our impressions greatly.

I think this is a great idea, and I'd like to work on this one next.    

More to come during a more respectable hour in the morning.  

Linda.

I've been watching some old television shows from the 50s and 60s lately and thinking about Bev's suggestion of things that we should know.  Wow!  Society sure has changed in the last 45-50 years.

Yep, I remember when my mother was baking and didn't have enough sugar we could just take a cup next door, knock and walk right on in, and borrow a cup of sugar.  Women always wore house-dresses, and occasionally wore curlers to town under a scarf.  We had a store where the clerk waited on us, unlike today where we pick out our own stuff.  Husbands worked and women stayed home and tended the kids.  And just all kinds of cool things.

Somewhere between then and now that's all changed, and we'll never be able to go back to the old ways.  How sad.

I can't tell you what year something happened unless there was something significant that happened on or around that date.  For example, my first niece was born the year after Secretariat won the Triple Crown, which means she was born in 1974, my first nephew was born later that same year.  Now you know what's more important to me.

I remember mini skirts being all the rage, the Beatles, "the Eagle Has Landed," the fuel crisis, the Iranian Hostage situation, the Berlin Wall, the attempt on President Reagan's life, "the meaning of the word 'is'," but ask me what year those things came into popular culture and I'll fail a first person contest.

I don't think people tend to change that much over the years, and to me I think our characters would have a lot of memories, but those memories probably aren't dates.  I would worry more about what style of clothes you may have worn over the years growing up, what changes have been made that have helped you to accomplish those things most important in your life (agricultural, occupational, etc)?  Did you always have a stove or did you have a crane and hearth?  Were common schools typical in your youth?  Did you attend school? Are there any cool slogans from the elections that you remember, or where particularly meaningful to you, i.e. "Tippecanoe and Tyler Too!"  What songs do you remember from your youth?  These are just a few things that you might remember, though the list goes on and on and...

What kind of things in particular do you want to talk about in particular?

Linda.

I also think we would know some stories from our parents and grandparents time. Pretty much what it means is that we will have to read about earlier times. By my age, I would have been born in 1819. So I should know some things about the time span from about 1825 on. I would have heard about the war of 1812 from stories being passed down. No I wouldn't know remember a lot from 1825 as I would have been about 6. But anything that might have been significant to "my" life. Some of the things may just me stories we take back in time and make them work. For example, my grandfather bought me my first pony. That could be taken back in time with me. (I was about 6 when this happened). I know what the depression was like for my grandparents as they have told stories. So those are some other thoughts I have on what we should know. Any other ideas?

Beverly Simpson

Depending on your main character's location and economic situation---you will have some early memories of the Indian removal---your attitudes towards that, your parent's attitudes, maybe the kinds of opportunities it opened up for your family, or memories of neighbors lost.......

Since my main character was born in 1800, I rely more on my own family's oral history of that period,  as the adults passed down a number of stories.  

I'll grant you that quills allowed for a more expressive hand, if you had the talent, but you really can't beat steel pens for convenience.  Caught on quick, too; today it's hard to find a clerk hired within the last half century who still bothers with quills.  Not when there's serious writing to do and the sub-assistant has taken over the copy-press for their own returns.

Too bad that whole class of office-worker who used to wander up and down the desks re-pointing now has little to do besides emptying spitoons.

And envelopes -- remember having to fold your own and close them with mucilage or mouth glue?

Tell you something else -- I actually prefer the new gutta percha rulers to the old wooden ones.  I don't think those will ever come back.

Yes, science is a wonderful thing.  Don't forget to turn off the gas when you leave tonight.

Now there's a question---when did smell get added to gas so you could tell if you left it on?

My current home was purchased with the old gas cocks still in place---I saw them only momentarily before my ever-practical Daddy ripped them out and capped every pipe save one, in a little corner down in the basement.  One day while cleaning, I knocked it, did not notice, went back upstairs, and had filled the whole downstairs with gas before Dear Husband came home and opened all the doors and windows and located the culprit

I'm glad to see this discussion. During one of my first events, someone asked me what I did before I "joined the army".

Last year, prior to the Great Crash, there was a discussion on the AC regarding this subject, but, sadly, some of the folks who consider themselves otherwise "authentic" were but amused by the whole idea, or they considered that since everyone in a regiment would have known everyone else (huh?), the conversation would have been limited to "How's the corn growin'?" or "How's yer sister doin'?" Yeesh - give me a break.

The 157th New York Infantry, for example, was recruited from Madison and Cortland counties in central New York. I live in north-western Madison County. Today, it takes me nearly an hour to travel to Cortland or to Hamilton - Lord only knows how long it would have taken me to get there 150 years ago. I don't know anyone who lives there. So how could anyone possibly say that everyone would have known everyone else's background, thereby making "What did you do before the war?" a moot question?

Answering this question forces one to study their local history. That cannot possibly be a bad thing.

Hi Rob,

I agree that not everyone would know everyone within the same regiment.  Take for example the 1st Ohio Volunteer Infantry that had soldiers from Lancaster, Dayton, Cleveland, Portsmouth, Zanesville... We're talking the four corners of the state, and thousands of men!

I don't think that everyone in the same company knew everyone either, at least before the war.  If you follow the Ohio River from one end of Gallia County, Ohio to the other it'll be about a 40-45 mile drive.  I think where the problem lies, is when a company has been together for a long time.  

After two or three years together as a unit you would get to know one another at least to a certain extent, probably well enough to know what they did for a living.  All told, for example, the 1st Ohio Heavy Artillery's Company G, had about 235 total members between 1862 and 1865, including officers.  All 235 weren't there at the same time, some were recruited later, some left after their three years was up, and others died or were given medical discharges, so the membership varied.  To have that few people living in close proximity, eating together, working together, and presumably playing together, and depending upon one another for their very life, I'd say they probably got to know one another pretty well, obviously some better than others.

But I think this is what the whole thread over there was about.  The same thing could be said about civilians living in a community during the war.  They'd know their neighbors, at least those who'd lived there for a while.  Even those who were more loners who didn't come out -- you'd at least know they liked to keep pretty much to themselves.

The same thing applies to civilians, too.  "What do you do for a living?" Can seem like a rather odd question to those who have lived in a small town for very long.  That's why for the immersion style events we have a Yahoo group where we can share with one another who we are and get those awkward questions over with before the event.  

Linda.  

--Last edited by Linda Trent on 2007-12-11 12:55:36 --

Quote :

Spinster wrote : Now there's a question---when did smell get added to gas so you could tell if you left it on? My current home was purchased with the old gas cocks still in place---I saw them only momentarily before my ever-practical Daddy ripped them out and capped every pipe save one, in a little corner down in the basement.  One day while cleaning, I knocked it, did not notice, went back upstairs, and had filled the whole downstairs with gas before Dear Husband came home and opened all the doors and windows and located the culprit

That's a great question because it made me look into this a little more than I would have otherwise.  The first thing I checked was the chapter on gas works in my "Boy's Book of Trades" ca. 1865, and they don't say anything about adding a warning agent to the gas.  But then I realized that they were talking about coal gas, not natural gas.  Coal gas has its own smell, so you should be able to tell if there's a leak.

Here's a discussion of gas from 1820 in the Annals of Philosophy, that says that coal gas has a strong odor of naptha, which you can't get rid of:

http://books.google.com/books?id=W-c4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=%22coal+gas%22+smell&source=web&ots=DOVGVOcKeh&sig=6OUHh2GdNF1gc7N1N3pAU7pVkYQ

Here's an 1870 article in the NYT about gas poisoning from a defective heating system in a school:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9500E1D71339EF34BC4E53DFB4678388669FDE&oref=slogin


Something else I guess we should all know...

In looking through the War Department office expenditures for FY64 I got the impression that the gas was used for lighting and coal or wood for heating.  I didn't look too closely at facilities because I was focusing on stationery, but now I think I have another project for the holidays.

Thanks again!

I saw a reality type program on Canadian public television a few years back where they had two couples, one older and one young, live life as 1870s settlers in the west for several months.  
The couples could only use period tools and equipment, had to build their own cabin, and grow or hunt their own food.

These poor couples were miserable!  Largely because they had no idea how to do anything!  None.  They learned literally everything the hard way.

The issue I had with the entire concept was that true settlers would have had at least some skills before they set out.  They could most likely hunt, start fires, cook on a fire, make a smattering of clothes, etc.  

Still, it was a neat show.

Quote :

Rob wrote : I'm glad to see this discussion. During one of my first events, someone asked me what I did before I "joined the army".

It actually took me until this past December to come up with an answer to this that I could be content with.  For a while now I had been racking my brain trying to figure out what I could say I had done.

Then we did a mostly civilian event at Hopewell Furnace and I found myself outside splitting wood and sawing logs to split some more.  And then from walking around the furnace learned that they employed woodcutters to fell trees and cut wood for the charcol production and such.  And since from my youth I had experience splitting and cutting, I found that my pre-war job was that of a woodcutter.  

Now that I have a general idea of what I did.. I can focus my research more to learn about the tools and the trade and what they wore.. etc..etc..

Greg,

Should you ever get near the little village of Newfane, New York, you'll be well rewarded by a trip to the little museum adjacent to their historical village--a museum that may very well be one of those 'by appointment' sort of things.

In the corner, near the restroom, is a framed broadax head, and a series of framed clippings and pictures, concerning a local man who was a woodcutter for the community, and a civil war veteran.  While much of the information is about his life postwar, the whole story is excellent food for thought in developing such a persona.  

--Last edited by Spinster on 2009-02-06 23:30:32 --

Quote :

Spinster wrote : Greg, Should you ever get near the little village of Newfane, New York, you'll be well rewarded by a trip to the little museum adjacent to their historical village--a museum that may very well be one of those 'by appointment' sort of things. In the corner, near the restroom, is a framed broadax head, and a series of framed clippings and pictures, concerning a local man who was a woodcutter for the community, and a civil war veteran.  While much of the information is about his life postwar, the whole story is excellent food for thought in developing such a persona.

Mrs Lawson

Thanks for the tip.  I will look into it and see if any of my trips to NY will take me that way.

Greg,

You could have gone to Newfane, NY with me, last winter. They held a little event up there called "Winter '64".

Bill,

One can hope for the opportunity to visit the great frozen north again, as I'll do most anything to get a break from tax season.  

I've thought of the war-addled wood chopper often since, how he fit into his community, and the way people felt about him.   I'd like to visit his grave, and pay my respects.

Quote :

Spinster wrote : Bill, One can hope for the opportunity to visit the great frozen north again, as I'll do most anything to get a break from tax season.

Mrs. Lawson,

That will be a year ago, next week. Time flies when you're having fun! The two things that stick in my mind, about the event, both involve Hank Trent. Getting off guard duty to get the fire going in the hospital tent and actually getting angry about how they were treating the "crazy" guy, when we took their food. Winter '64 was one of the best events I've ever attended.

Getting back to the OP's question, I have a direct paternal ancestor who was with a Tennessee Regiment at the Battle of New Orleans who would have been roughly my age during the War Between the States. I'm thinking of ordering a copy of his pension record to develope a citizen impression as a War of 1812 pensioner. I'm quite sure that as a frontiersman he would have been quite capable with flint and steel. I have managed to light a few fires with flint and steel, and will be researching what else someone with his background would be skilled at. I am also of an age where I have seen many changes. I grew up in a small town in the North Cascades in the State of Washington where there was perhaps one house with indoor plumbing. Some folks were still using kerosene lamps for lighting. Water was heated on a wood-burning stove to pour into a galvanized tub on the kitchen floor for the Saturday night baths. One family we visited fairly often had a canvas roof and endwalls on their home which made things interesting for us kids when playing on the 2d floor.
An eyewitness account of the Tennesse militia states:
"When they arrived in New Orleans the Tennessee Militia did not make a very good impression on the people of New Orleans with their clothing, etc.

"Their appearance was not very military. In their woolen hunting shirts and copperas (greenish color) dyed pantaloons, with slouched hats made from the skins of raccoons or foxes; with belts of untanned deerskin in which were stuck their hunting knives and tomahawks-with their long unkempt hair and unshorn faces .... But were admirable soldiers, remarkable for endurance and possessing that admirable quality in soldiers of being able to take care of themselves."32

Another eyewitness wrote of Carroll's Tennessee Militiamen: "These men carried nothing but their carouch-boxes and powder homs-their bullets were usually in their pantaloons pockets-they had no idea whatever of military order and discipline; they paid attention only to the more important part of their calling, which, according to their notions, was quietly to pick out their man, fix him in their aim, and bring him down."
http://www.danielhaston.com/children/isaac/isaacs-warof1812.htm
This should be interesting and fun.

What a facinating question! I'm new to this fora, so I'm coming to the discussion a bit late, but I really enjoy hearing people who have given this question some thought.
I have two general personnas that I can adapt for *most* of the events near me. One is a tailoress associated with a ready-to-wear clothing emporium. My father was a tailor and without brothers to teach he allowed me to learn a bit by watching. I met Mr. Wolfe, a tailor also, through my father and we married, moved to his hometown of Hagerstown, MD. Dependant on where in the war we are, he's either detained at Ft. McHenry or has passed due to catching pneumonia during his detention. I'm doing my best to keep the emporium together and making uniforms when I get clients, small clothes for the Commission, and teaching the belles practical sewing... and taking care of our soldiers without being arrested for sympathies by my nosy neighbors!

Welcome Elaine!

thank you, Madame.