Quote :

Charles Heath wrote : Robert,rather than lumping CPH in one group, take the time to jot down the differences, since they are three distinct classifications. This may provide much more clarity.

Hank's working at getting registered, but his email is down so he can't get confirmation right now.  He's asked if I would mind posting a question for him.  Here's his question:

I'd like to see more discussion on the distinction between progressive and hard core events.  What's the difference?  What are examples of recent or upcoming hardcore events?  How do they differ from examples of recent or upcoming progressive events?

Thanks,  

Hank

Charles and Linda,

Great questions. Obviously I touched on the definitions earlier with campaign, progressive, hardcore. This is one I want to sit back and observe the answers to. I mentioned earlier that these terms have come to mean different things to different people and I think it may be enlightening for everyone to weigh in on their opinion first. Here's a hint though, there is a good explaination on "another board"........ I also will defer this to the senior professors around here who have been at the CPH thing longer than I have as they are much better qulified to explain the nuances.

Linda, I look forward to seeing Hank over here.

Also, I've noticed that most of the people posting here are the same old same old, I know others are looking so please jump in and fear not asking anything that may get you slapped elsewhere.

Come on folks..... nobody wants to take a stab at this one?

Define Campaign, Hardcore, and Progressive.

What kind of event would Rich Mountain be?

What kind of event would McDowell be?

What kind of event would On The Farm be?

  Feel free to copy/paste from the article. It has only been 10 years....  

Quote :

toptimlrd wrote : Come on folks..... nobody wants to take a stab at this one? Define Campaign, Hardcore, and Progressive. What kind of event would Rich Mountain be? What kind of event would McDowell be? What kind of event would On The Farm be?

I tried to put to words what the definitions are to me.. but they seemed very blurred..

Rich Mountain and McDowell to me seem to be progressive events.  They have elements that can appeal to the hardcore person but they also are a good bridge event for someone wanting to try out a "campaign" event.  Actual ground, moving camps, historical scenrios..

I think Hardcore events are more like Winter 64, Struggle for Statehood, I-600.  These are events where you need to really prepare mentally and physically for them.  You also need to bring your "A-game" so that you can keep up with the others who are there.  These events to me are the ones looking to get the full weekend experience out of it.

These are just how I see them.. others may see it differently.

In Paul Calloway's article at http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1081 the descrïption of hardcore includes this: "This is the big leagues where complete immersion is the goal. Finances be d***ed, there are no excuses to be made at this level. Do it right or don't do it."

The descrïption of progressive includes this: "Reenactors reach the PROGRESSIVE stage when they begin making an all out effort (within the limits of their finances) to get things as right as possible."

Those definitions, ironically, are for reenactors, rather than events. Is there a handy article that defines the terms for events?

But anyway, I'm more interested in how the definitions are currently applied. What upcoming or recent events do you think fit the definition of hardcore, as opposed to progressive? Is there even a distinction between p and h?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

Actually there is, and has been for a long time. Back in December, Paul asked me to update my earlier article from about 10 years ago which introduced the concept of a progressive classification. The fun part about this is going to be incorporating some even earlier pieces from the 1960s and 1980s, as well as two later articles that tended to cloud up things, and these later epistles tend to be the reason you see illogical terms such as "progressive mainstream."

Greg, yes Rich Mountain was my event, but please explain how it was a bridge event?  Personal invitations were originally sent to major groups and commands which we knew could do it.  Individuals had to pass by me to get in, and I denied and refunded a number of folks.  Ninety + percent who attended were very well experienced reenactors.  I made some consessions and favors naturally.  This was not a streamer/bridging event.  I do consider McDowell as such because I understand that is how it is organized, or has been in the past.

Greg said: "I think Hardcore events are more like Winter 64, Struggle for Statehood, I-600."

Greg, did you attend any of those?

Well, I'll back off a little.  I don't want to be known as the nastly little administrator, but you are right Greg.  Each of us see things differently.  Authentic hardcore events to are ones like the Picket Mills, Prelude to Chickamauga, I-600, any Southern Guard first person event, LBL's, and of course RM.  These are just some I've attended.  Charles asks a good question.

Off my box and back to modding.

Ken mentions, "Each of us see things differently."

Without opening up the old can of worms, this is about the easiest way to describe the sliding scale that becomes our collective and individual memories of events. Our concept of best event and worst event tend to be based on this. While this is common sense, this tendency explains why folks who plateau at the Recons, McDowell, or Shenandoah '62 (just to name a few) don't realize there is much more out there, and why others who have moved beyond what those events can ever offer scratch their heads.

Hank,

Ding Ding Ding Ding You found the article to which I was referring. You now move to the head of the class (sorry Greg). Of course your experience (as well as most of the others here) has given you insight and knowledge far beyond mine. You (and the others who have responded to this thread so far) are those graduate students I referred to in a different post.

I think we do need to bear in mind that I was trying to reach out to those who have been interested in the dark side but have yet to get the courage to try it or ask anything about it....sort of where I was a couple of years ago.

Now that we have some responses, I will put out my $0.02 worth

Campaigner: A person who does their best to be an example of a Civil War soldier in not only their dress and attitude, but in their camp and activities.

Campaigner event: An event that often involves troops on the march and requires that all equipment be carried withthe individual. Event standards are set high but some allowances are made for those who are coming from the "progressive" wing and have an appropriate attitude. Prelude to Chikamauga woudl be a good exampe of one of these events.

Progressive: One who can fall in at almost any event they wish. They are doing the best they possibly can in material knowledge, attitude, and research. Often these may be newer people to the "C/P/H end of the hobby where everything may not be exactly right but they are making attempts to change and are asking the good questions such as "Where can I find information on....." instead of the usual "Who makes the best........".

Progressive event: McDowell to me would bean example of a progressive event. Standards are set higher than the usual Mainstream event but are more relaxed than a campaigner or hardcore event.

Hardcore: One who has extensively researched his or her impression and knows more than most PhDs on their area of expertise. First person is never a problem for these folks and they are a wealth of knowledge about the most insignificant minutae on their impression.

Hardcore event: One where life of the 1860s is very accurately portrayed right down to the hardships experienced. FIrst person is expected and insisted upon. Gear must be correct for the impression with few exceptions. People who come to this event need to know their impression extremely well and be able to manage under the period hardships. Winter of 64 would fall into this catagory IMHO.

Ok senior professors, how did I do?

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toptimlrd wrote Hardcore event: One where life of the 1860s is very accurately portrayed right down to the hardships experienced. FIrst person is expected and insisted upon. Gear must be correct for the impression with few exceptions. People who come to this event need to know their impression extremely well and be able to manage under the period hardships. Winter of 64 would fall into this catagory IMHO.

I like that. Okay, Winter of 64 is upcoming, and I'm planning on attending that with Noah Briggs in the medical department in some role. What else is upcoming that would fit that definition? I'm trying to get a practical feel for what the current "hardcore" side of the hobby is doing these days, including areas and events and groups I'm not currently aware of. Don't know that I have the kit and skills for every hardcore event, but I'd like to attend what I can fit into.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

What about the event Linda is putting on?

Also I'm not as familiar with it, how about Down on the Farm?

Quote :

toptimlrd wrote :What about the event Linda is putting on?

Don't know if it would be considered hardcore or not, but I'm attending that too of course.

Quote :

Also I'm not as familiar with it, how about Down on the Farm?

I've asked someone who attended previously, and the impression I got was it's more about interacting as modern people while doing period tasks, than living in a period world where period tasks need done. And I don't mean because of the visitor interpretation; I mean it gets more modern after the visitors leave or away from visitor presence.

I just didn't get the impression it's one of those events where the mindset is, "Bring your A game, 'cause this one is going to be 36 hours of intellectual and/or physical challenge." But I may be wrong. In fact I'd love to be told I'm mistaken, so if anyone can offer better insight, please do so! And remember that everything I've heard about it is second-hand, and not what I've experienced myself.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

Like I said, I'm not that familiar with On thr Farm other than what I've heard so I really wasn't sure about that one. Didn't you also do a period camping trip recently that was full immersion?

Ken,

I think it may be useful to post the Campaigner Manifesto by Nicky Hughes you have on your website in this thread.

Here goes:

THE CAMPAIGNERS MANIFESTO

By Nicky Hughes


1)  I am committed to developing and practicing the most historically accurate portrayal of a soldier of the American Civil War now possible.   The only limitations I place upon the accuracy of my impression are due to a prudent concern for maintaining modern standards of health and safety, and those limitations naturally enforced by lack of information resulting from the passage of time since the Civil War.



2)  I obtain the most historically accurate clothing, equipment, and other relevant items available to me.   I insist upon the use of proper materials and construction techniques in all reproduction items.   I handle my finances in a manner that will prevent financial considerations from limiting the accuracy of my impression.



3)  I recognize that many vital aspects of Civil War soldier life - terror and wounds in combat, death on the battlefield or in the hospital, camp diseases, and much else - cannot be re-created effectively in a living history context.   I do not see this failing as an excuse to be lax about other aspects of my impression, but as a challenge to insure that all I can portray is presented as accurately as possible.



4)  My impression is based upon serious research into and careful analysis of reliable sources of information about the experiences of Civil War soldiers.   I recognize the need to employ the historian's skills, including the ability to evaluate possible sources of information.  I place considerable reliance upon documented research conducted by others, but I do not base my impression upon the claims of those who manufacture goods for the reenacting market, reenacting traditions and customs, superficial or outdated publications, entertainment media, or other suspect sources.



5)   I am prepared to change my impression to incorporate improvements dictated by new historical information as it becomes available to me.   I recognize that our understanding of the details of history changes over time.   I welcome constructive discussion of such matters, and I share information freely.



6)  I portray the Civil War soldier as my knowledge of history leads me to believe him to have been while on campaign - unencumbered by impedimenta.   I limit the items I use when portraying soldiers to those items that I could reasonably expect to carry upon my person for extended periods of time under the harsh conditions experienced by Civil War soldiers.   (Exceptions for cavalry, artillery, medical, some officers, and other specialized impressions are to be expected - within bounds set by historical information.)   I use my research into period soldier practice to determine what equipment I should carry.



7)  I usually portray the typical common soldiers who made up the great mass of men on the two sides during the Civil War.   My impression may reflect regional variations in clothing and equipment and changes over time during the war.   I can vary my personal impression to suit differing locations and dates of depicted events.   Except in very special circumstances, however, I avoid presenting exotic impressions such as Zouaves, marines, sharpshooters, sailors, highlanders, and such.



8)  Although my primary interest is in soldiers on campaign, I am able to portray soldiers in garrison or winter quarters when appropriate to a particular event, scenario, or historic site.   I am willing to change my personal impression to fit various situations.   I apply the same standards of historical accuracy to such portrayals that I apply to my campaign impression.



9)  I maintain myself in a physical condition that allows me to portray Civil War soldiers with realism.   I keep my weight at a level that honestly represents men living on period soldier food and performing period soldier duties.   I am able to walk distances and perform chores required of me while depicting soldier life. I am willing to accept standards of personal hygiene and grooming consistent with soldier life in the field during the Civil War.



10)  I recognize that a successful impression cannot be superficial.   My objective is not to conceal modern items but to re-create a historic time and place in detail.   Therefore, my impression is as accurate and complete as I can make it on every level - including all of my clothing and the contents of my pockets, knapsack, and haversack.   Further, I am familiar with the material culture of the mid-19th United States in general, and not just with objects related directly to the military.



11)  While portraying a Civil War soldier I eat food that simulates as closely as possible the rations available to the men in the situation being depicted.   However, I do not endanger my health by consuming food known to be dangerous.   I dispose of human waste in a safe manner.



12)  I handle and maintain weapons in a manner intended to insure my safety and that of others around me, and which reflects period practice in a way consistent with modern safety requirements.



13)  In pursuit of the complete Civil War soldier experience, I am willing to take part in accurately staged re-creations of typical military activities including marching, drill practice, army ceremonies, guard and picket duty, simulated combat, food preparation and other aspects of life on the march and in bivouac.   I learn as much as I can about the details of these activities so that I can portray them realistically.   If called upon to do so, I am willing to continue the living history experience around the clock during events.



14)  I recognize that large-scale infantry maneuvering and combat were based upon battalion formations.   For the purposes of participation at large events, I associate myself with a battalion run in a manner consistent with The Campaigner's Manifesto.   I subject myself to the discipline inherent in such a military organization and participate fully in the battalion's activities during events.



15)  I realize that Civil War soldiers had life experiences before the Civil War and that the lives of civilians continued through the war, affected to various degrees by it.   I am committed to learning about antebellum and wartime civilian life to better understand the historical context in which soldier experiences took place, and to permit realistic interaction with serious civilian reenactors.



16)  I employ first-person living history techniques whenever appropriate.   I take great care to avoid behavior, language, and comments that might disrupt accurate living history activities.   I strive to attain a mental attitude appropriate to the person I portray when in character.



17)  I do not "hide my candle under a bushel."   I take advantage of situations that allow me to share my knowledge of the realities of Civil War soldier life with fellow living history enthusiasts and with the public.   I participate in living history activities, especially at smaller events, and in educational programs.



18)  I see "mainstream" reenactors as potential converts to living history at higher levels of historical accuracy, and I avoid conflict with them.   I conduct my relations with them in a manner consistent with the behavior expected from mid-19th century gentlemen.   However, I do maintain my own high standards of excellence for portraying Civil War soldier life.



19)  I limit my discussion of and participation in politics at events to that appropriate to the event historical scenario.   I leave my views on current events and modern-day reenacting politics at home.



20)  The greatest pleasure I derive from Civil War living history comes from the knowledge that I am re-creating the experiences of the soldiers who fought it with the greatest fidelity to history I can manage.

Quote :

toptimlrd wrote : Didn't you also do a period camping trip recently that was full immersion?

Yes, and actually that's one of the reaons I'm asking. Everyone backed out but my wife, and Charles, who wasn't even one of the original participants. The event itself went very well, but the recruiting was a failure.

So I'm looking for events and/or reenactors who already are putting on and actually attending events that are either full immersion or public education combined with immersion after the public leaves. The kind of events where everyone is expected to be at their best, to cooperate in pushing the envelope, and all that stuff.

In other words, I'm wondering where the hardcore edge of the hobby is today, both metaphorically, to discuss what's in the future, and literally, to sign up for the events if I can meet the guidelines.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net