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hanktrent wrote :   So I'm looking for events and/or reenactors who already are putting on and actually attending events that are either full immersion or public education combined with immersion after the public leaves. The kind of events where everyone is expected to be at their best, to cooperate in pushing the envelope, and all that stuff. Hank Trent hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

From my experience, what you are looking for is pretty rare and my guess is you and Linda are already involved with what is available.  

Over the years, I've attended a rather wide range of events, from the Mega-fests to events like Paynes Farm and Rich Mountain. I've never attended an event where the majority of the participants made a concerted effort to maintain first person for the entire reenactment. I'm sure those events exist, but I've never been to one.

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I've never attended an event where the majority of the participants made a concerted effort to maintain first person for the entire reenactment. I'm sure those events exist, but I've never been to one.

If anyone wants to try one, I've got a few openings for male reenactors left at the Trial event, and mentors are standing by.    I realize it's a way to drive, but it'll apparently be something different.

I'm mainly in need of extra jurors, people who can give a character witness or testify as to what they heard said...  This won't be scrïpted, but you'll obviously be given some sort of transcrïpt about what was said before the event and then you'll have to testify based upon what you want to say.  No over the top theatrics, no "hang 'em" mentality, but read the transcrïpt once or twice and then testify to the points you remember.

As I've said, this one's really shaping up to be fun and interesting.  The more guys the more interesting, guaranteed.     Deadline for registering has been extended particularly for the male reenactors to May 5.  If anyone's interested contact me at lindatrent@zoomnet.net

Thanks.  

--Last edited by Linda Trent on 2007-04-22 15:04:17 --

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Ken Cornett wrote : Greg, yes Rich Mountain was my event, but please explain how it was a bridge event?  Personal invitations were originally sent to major groups and commands which we knew could do it.  Individuals had to pass by me to get in, and I denied and refunded a number of folks.  Ninety + percent who attended were very well experienced reenactors.  I made some consessions and favors naturally.  This was not a streamer/bridging event.  I do consider McDowell as such because I understand that is how it is organized, or has been in the past.

Ken

I think I described your event as a progressive event.  It could be used as a bridge event.  If there was an approved group that had some mainstreamer they wanted to bring along (w/your approval) to try out a campaign event.  

I was not saying that your event was a missionary event reaching out to mainstreamers.. but if there was a streamer who could do this event and had the kit and passed by you, then you let him in. Thus he bridged the gap.

Charles,
I did not attend those events.  I based my statement on the AAR's I have seen here, on the AC, in the CWH and on my own opinion and definitions that I have formed in my 9 yrs in the hobby.

Am I not allowed to define a hardcore event if I haven't attended one?    

--Last edited by lhsnj on 2007-04-23 11:42:08 --

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Charles Heath wrote : Ken mentions, "Each of us see things differently." Without opening up the old can of worms, this is about the easiest way to describe the sliding scale that becomes our collective and individual memories of events. Our concept of best event and worst event tend to be based on this. While this is common sense, this tendency explains why folks who plateau at the Recons, McDowell, or Shenandoah '62 (just to name a few) don't realize there is much more out there, and why others who have moved beyond what those events can ever offer scratch their heads.

Charles,

Some of us do realize there is more out there.  And some of us do understand that we are not ready for those yet, thus we choose to not attend and potentially ruin the event for those who do get it.

Also I would not describe, McDowell or Recon or Shen as hardcore.  I would use the term progressive which I defined in an earlier post.

Greg,

At RM, if anyone could meet the guidelines, just as all authentic events state, they could get in.  That was basically after the invitees made it in.  I was the "gatekeeper" for this and kept it pretty clear.  Unfortunately with large numbers like we had, I could not see everyone from both sides when the event started.  I put the onus on the commanders with a trust system and it worked out pretty well.

I would definitely not label it progressive when we climbed 6 miles up a mountain in the rain and fog, did not allow knapsacks on the march per history, and did not issues rations.  Many folks whined about the knapsack issue Saturday night and left.  To each their own, but it was what really happened.  

Again, different levels and different desires are across this hobby.  I just see things differently than you do.  Just as Bill and I do.  On the phone we laugh about such things, but life goes on.  I love this hobby.

While we are talking about specific events, let me mention Prelude.

To me here was a campaigner event that was basically a weekend long tactical that was well done. I wouldn't call it hardcore though as at least in my surroundings, there was some non period discussions taking place that were not discouraged. It may have leaned very slightly towards progressive but was not a bridging or missionary type event either. We slogged through creeks, crawled through fencing, etc. which would be rather foreign to a mainstream only type reenactor but it was "fun".

Wherever you slot it it was well done by the WIG.

I think it should be apparent by now that these terms are on a bit of a sliding scale as Charles (I think) mentioned earlier but I do believe that most who read this can get a feel for the differences in Campaigner, Progressive, and Hardcore.

Hopefully we have debunked the myths about the gear and the EVIL hardcore guys and I would like to hear from some mainstreamers who may be curious about the "dark side" but are still having trepidation. Please post your thoughts, concerns, and questions so we can answer them. In this forum there are no dumb questions.  

--Last edited by toptimlrd on 2007-04-23 12:05:51 --

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Ken Cornett wrote : Again, different levels and different desires are across this hobby.  I just see things differently than you do.  Just as Bill and I do.  On the phone we laugh about such things, but life goes on.  I love this hobby.

Fair enough.  

Greg,

Unlike the average farbfest, mainstream, or authenticist event, the better events do not typically repeat on a semi-annual, annual, or biennial basis. The better events are typically a one time only deal, or something likely to be held on an irregular basis, at best. This is one reason so many people shake their heads when reading, in the midst of good AARs, some fellow saying "Wow! This sounded great! I'll consider it next year!" Frankly, some of the second and third iterations lose their freshness, when compared to the initial offering, and this doesn't exclude beta test events a year or so prior to the main event.

The astute observer can figure out who offers a great event and who doesn't. Some event announcements need only list a time, place, and organizer. If the only event info you have is "we are going to place a frog in a box and shake it about," then it doesn't matter. You go, get in the game, and have a fine event. Other organizers can promise the second coming of Christ with free pizza, and the event will barely be worth the fuel expense to get there if you lived in the same county, if that. That may seem cruel, but that is the way it is.

Missionary work is a waste of time. I shouldn't even need to write that, but there is it one more time for those who need it.  Mentoring is another thing altogether. I can't speak for every company at Rich Mountain, but I know ours had a number of folks who were fairly new or brand new to that type of experience. Seeing a very young fellow (who had only recently departed Longstreet's Corps) wide eyed and full of enthusiasm Sunday morning was wonderful. That was loaner box time well spent. He was still talking about how good it was at a museum work day in December. Others have similar stories, and have for many years. Fact is, when we incorporated that event's list of registrants into the 2006 Who Is Us list, a heck of a lot of mainstream and authenticist names appeared. Folks did go, and did give it a whirl.
 
I like to ask what events folks have attended not to discredit them, but to learn if we may have something in common. These common experiences lead to understanding. At a recent gab session, a fellow extolled the virtues of a string of a half dozen events. Having attended five of six of those events, I really felt the need to vomit, but I uncharacteristically played nice and not only listened to what he had to say, but heard what he said.

Greg, the weekend of 10-12 August 2007 is a trainwreck in terms of event scheduling (as are two other weekends this year), but if your own personal schedule allows it, come to McDonough NY for a weekend with some folks you probably know. It's basically 45 minutes north of Binghamton. Come in gray (a shortage item up there) and see if we are as big a bunch of SOBs as everyone says we are.   I think Bernie can chime in on that aspect.

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Charles Heath wrote : Missionary work is a waste of time. I shouldn't even need to write that, but there is it one more time for those who need it.  Mentoring is another thing altogether. I can't speak for every company at Rich Mountain, but I know ours had a number of folks who were fairly new or brand new to that type of experience. Seeing a very young fellow (who had only recently departed Longstreet's Corps) wide eyed and full of enthusiasm Sunday morning was wonderful. That was loaner box time well spent. He was still talking about how good it was at a museum work day in December. Others have similar stories, and have for many years. Fact is, when we incorporated that event's list of registrants into the 2006 Who Is Us list, a heck of a lot of mainstream and authenticist names appeared. Folks did go, and did give it a whirl. Greg, the weekend of 10-12 August 2007 is a trainwreck in terms of event scheduling (as are two other weekends this year), but if your own personal schedule allows it, come to McDonough NY for a weekend with some folks you probably know. It's basically 45 minutes north of Binghamton. Come in gray (a shortage item up there) and see if we are as big a bunch of SOBs as everyone says we are.   I think Bernie can chime in on that aspect.

Charles,

Thanks for the clarification.  Your desription above is what I meant about bridging.  I guess I used missionary thinking mentoring.  I agree with you on the mentoring and that it is the way to go on a case by case basis.

In regards to you guys being a bunch of SOB's, like I told Ken in a PM, I don't look at the guys who attend hardcore events that way.  I see you guys as a wealth of knowledge and like to listen and read your posts.

As to the August event, I would need to check the calander and see.  But if that one doesn't work out, I will see about taking you up on any future offer.

I'm noticing another difference here: There's the maximum f/m/a/c/p/h experience one can potentially have at an event, compared to the minimum experience one can get away with at the same event.

At some events, the gap is pretty wide. You can sit around drinking beer from a cooler, or you can do all the "hardcore" stuff with your little sub-group, and get away with either. If you know how to find that little sub-group and/or figure out how not to be negatively impacted by what's going on around you, you can have a p/h experience. If you're not lucky enough to know which sub-group to be part of, you're as apt to feel like you attended a f/m event as a p/h one.

Other events have a narrow gap. The event is structured so that everyone will have about the same experience, and anyone signing up can be pretty sure they'll get that experience, regardless what role they're in or who they're with. It may be due to constant enforcement to keep p/h standards up, or heavy peer pressure to prevent "hardcores" from interfering with the f/m/a atmosphere.

Events with wide gaps are good and bad. If you can find the right sub-group, it means you can pull off a good carpe-eventum, and thus have more "good event" experiences available per year. If you can't, you may go home frustrated, knowing you spent as much time and money in preparation and travel as anyone else, yet got stuck with a lesser experience.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

"Many folks whined about the knapsack issue Saturday night and left."

Ken,

Funny thing about events. As you well know, I was one of the whiners who left the mountain. When I think back about Rich Mountain two things stick in my mind. The hike up the mountain and Saturday evening spent with a group of friends, sitting around a fire talking and telling stories. As I look back, I wouldn't have wanted to miss either experience. Thanks for a great event.
 

Hank is looking for the "broadband experience."

Apologies in advance. Okay, MANY apologies in advance.

The funny part is I understand.

Well, this thread was starting to get a little lonely so I thought I might throw this out for thought. Bear in mind this thread was developed to help the authentic curious learn more about the C/P/H side of the hobby. One thing tht seems to get the hackles up on many other forums is when someone dares suggest tht a new reenactor buy the more authentic kit to start with even if he (or she) only plans on residing in tent city at the battle of y'all come. Let's face it when I started I didn't even know about the C/P/H side of the hobby. Now gear is not the most important thing in the authentic attitude is, but once you get the right atitude you WILL want the right gear (trust me)

I want to explain why I suggest getting better gear to everybody getting into the hobby vs. the $200 sutler row special. If you show up at the local farb fest in top drawer gear you will be admitted with no problem AND if you decide to try something a little different and show up at say a one day authentic event to get a taste of the authentic side you can do that as well. No if you have the sutler row stuff and show up without making arrangements for loaner gear or talking to the organizer you MIGHT get turned away (especially if you show up with a bad attitude). The bottom line is that you can not go wrong by buying top quality gear regardless of your reenacting preferences. Why buy something that may get you excluded from some eents instead of something that would be welcome anywhere?

Now there is a lot of argument about cost out there. Let me be honest and upfront: item for item authentic gear does cost more. There I said it. Now here is why many authentics say it is not more expensive. Most (not all) mainstreamers end up with a boatload of unnecessary stuff (yes I have some of it too   ) such as a wedge or wall tent, camp chairs, lanterns, cots, tables, etc. All you really need for an authentic event is the uniform, musket, accoutrements, gum blanket, blanket, and maybe a few personal items. Therefore you can have a very authentic kit for less money than most mainstreamers spend on the periphrial stuff. Also it's important to point out that often you can get used authentic gear for about the same price as new mainstream stuff. I bought my first pair of very authentic trousers for $80 off a blanket sale, I have purchased a Sekela sack coat used for $125. The stuff is out there if you are patient. You will eventually need to buy some stuff new but it can be done. Think about it this way, if you spend $3 a day on Starbucks, that would be over $1000 per year just by skipping the Starbucks and brewing the cup at home. That would make for some great spending money on gear.

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toptimlrd wrote : Now there is a lot of argument about cost out there. Let me be honest and upfront: item for item authentic gear does cost more. There I said it. Now here is why many authentics say it is not more expensive. Most (not all) mainstreamers end up with a boatload of unnecessary stuff (yes I have some of it too   ) such as a wedge or wall tent, camp chairs, lanterns, cots, tables, etc. All you really need for an authentic event is the uniform, musket, accoutrements, gum blanket, blanket, and maybe a few personal items. Therefore you can have a very authentic kit for less money than most mainstreamers spend on the periphrial stuff. Also it's important to point out that often you can get used authentic gear for about the same price as new mainstream stuff. I bought my first pair of very authentic trousers for $80 off a blanket sale, I have purchased a Sekela sack coat used for $125. The stuff is out there if you are patient. You will eventually need to buy some stuff new but it can be done. Think about it this way, if you spend $3 a day on Starbucks, that would be over $1000 per year just by skipping the Starbucks and brewing the cup at home. That would make for some great spending money on gear.

Robert

I agree with you on getting good gear to start with, because then you are only buying it once.

If you buy a pair of incorrect trousers that will get you into the BBB, but now you want to try something better, you need to spend the money again on a new pair of proper ones.  Whereas you buy the proper ones and you are set regardless of event and don't need new ones until it is time to replace the old ones.

One thing I have found is that YES, the INITIAL investment in this hobby can be expensive, but if spread out over 2 years and also buy doing some shopping around or finding someone who can sew, you can reduce the amount.  Once you get your base kit together, your yearly expenses are not that bad.  Mostly registration fees, smaller items here/there and the occasional new uniform part to adjust an impression.

The last few years in terms of gear, I don't think I have spent more than 300$ per year.  Last year I picked up a new battleshirt for Shen 62.  This year, I had a lady in our unit make me a new shirt and I am on her list for a civilian sack coat.  Although I did get permission from the wife to purchase one if I wanted to.  

When I first started I made the mistake and bought some gear that was wrong, I then had to buy the right stuff again when I changed units and realized it was wrong.  It was cheap when I bought it, but it was still money spent that could have gone to something better..  

In the meantime, those camp stools and lanterns are in my closet.   And my wedge tent is the part of the company loaner gear from when we do events that allow for that type of canvas.

Just some thoughts.

Once the attempt to classify events results in more categories than contenders in a given year, it begins to seem faintly ridiculous.

Plus, what's the point?  There's a continuum of authenticity out there, and dichotomyzing it into "good" and "bad" events quickly loses its utility as a guide, becoming more about metaphysics or ideology than history.

And God knows I don't want to revive the entire discussion about Rich Mountain, but after a year I am heartily sick of hearing thoughtless jibes about "whining" or wussing out.  Reasonable people can differ about the knapsack decision.  I generally don't like manifestos, but Hughes makes a good initial point:

" 1)  I am committed to developing and practicing the most historically accurate portrayal of a soldier of the American Civil War now possible.   The only limitations I place upon the accuracy of my impression are due to a prudent concern for maintaining modern standards of health and safety, and those limitations naturally enforced by lack of information resulting from the passage of time since the Civil War."

Note the "prudent concern" portion.  Because the organizers made a calculated gamble in not informing participants about spending the night without the usual camp and garrison equipage, everyone had to make their own decision, on the spot, about health and safety.  Because I've been to quality events before, and hope to go to many more in the future, I had no problem being the first one down the mountain.

The day I do something I consider imprudent simply to get points from Chawls (I'm just using you as an example, dear ), shoot me.  

If my friends don't, I have a wife back on planet Earth who'll do worse than that.

Anyway, I'm off to clean some nibs for the weekend's "bridge" event...

   Hmm...if you didn't want to revive RM, then why did you?  Being one of the organizers makes it difficult to not chim in, but being the Administrator/Owner of this forum, I will stick to the rules.

The only thing I have to say about is this is everyone knows where they are in this hobby.  It depends on where you are on the spectrum as to whether you can handle the events you choose to attend. Fair enough.

I will close this thread if "another" RM debate develops.

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Note the "prudent concern" portion.  Because the organizers made a calculated gamble in not informing participants about spending the night without the usual camp and garrison equipage, everyone had to make their own decision, on the spot, about health and safety.

Well, there's no doubt that different people have different ideas about what's "prudent," and no answer is right or wrong for everyone. But I think that categorizing events is important, because I'd prefer to be at an event where the majority has similar ideas as me. That old camraderie thing, you know?

I was at an event where it started to rain buckets Saturday night, and people started leaving. Pretty soon, there were just four of us left on the hilltop and naturally the organizers cancelled the event and left too, but allowed those who wanted to, to stay on site.

The other three with me decided they were going to stay, but they were going to quit reenacting and just talk and act modern. So I was literally the last person who still wanted to stay on site and continue reenacting. I suggested they do too, but they didn't see any point.

So I left. Not for fear of my safety spending a night in the woods in the rain, but for fear of dying of boredom.   That's about as depressing an ending to an event as you can get.

Long story short, if I'm going to an event, I want some sense that at least a sizeable number of attendees are there for the same reason I am, and will make the same safety judgment calls that I will, so I can have some expectation that what's promised will happen, and the attendees won't take over and turn the event into what they want.

Categories? Promises? Just knowing the organizers and who they tend to invite? Past performance of those attending or those putting it on? Any and all work to help figure out what's going to happen. But yes, the kind of event really does matter, as far as deciding whether it's worth it for me to attend.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

"everyone knows where they are in this hobby"

But, with all respect Ken, that's just not true for everyone.  Some folks think they do, and they may be right or wrong in other people's eyes.  Some of them like to think they know where everyone else is, but life's just not that simple.  

And since there's no certification board, apart from a pastiche of the self-anointed on-line, it's not a matter ever likely to be completely resolved.

Hank just gave a good example of part of the problem.  By his account, he was the most "authentic" person left at that event, and I don't doubt it.  But I've also no doubt the others who stayed the night considered themselves more "hard core."  

What any of that has to do with history remains open to debate.

About 23 months ago, a considerable amount of whining, beyatching, and moaning took place concerning rations at an event that shall remain nameless, so as not to offend anyone. The confederates, already in a flat haversack state of existence, were issued somewhat less than "scant rations" at the start of the event. "Oh, Lawdy, Mizz Scarlett, whatever shall we be eatin'? What shall we do without the McReb 24-hour drive thru?"

After a rainfall of Biblical proportions (Grumpy Dave was to blame) creating flood conditions an hour or so downstream (flood as in houses washed away, and not just clearing suburbia of floating plastic toys) the lads awakened to a fine breakfast of coolwater sammiches, and proceeded to patrol up a hill until they found some abandoned yankee rations.

You'd have thought the world had ended, at least up until that point.

Of course, I wish someone had told me those eggs were already hardboiled....  

This forum has the best emoticons. It does.  

Interesting discussion, way off topic, but interesting! From my perspective, I really don't have any problem with people classifing events, at least in their own minds. My only real problem is classifing events as good, bad, better, or best. The fact is that an event that may be "better" for some, could well be awful for others.

As a good example, I'm involved with the event held in Neshaminy, PA. A good number of people think it's a pretty good event. I am well aware that others would think the event is just terrible.

I make it a point to advertise Neshaminy as it is. It's up to the participants to decide if it meets their needs, or not. The event isn't good or bad. It is what it is.