On various forums and at various times, the growth of the authentic side of the Hobby has been discused and debated. I'm wondering what's the maxium size of a very authentic event. The Winter of '64 was by far, the most authentic event I've attended, but there were only 70 participants. When I look back at the more authentic events I've attended, the numbers seem to max out at around 150/200 participants.  

It seems as events get bigger, compromises are made for the sake of logistics, or just to attract the needed numbers. Am I missing something here? It won't be the first time I've been told I don't have a clue!    

Bill,

I think you are pretty much dead on. The problem is that we are in a relatively small hobby and when you sort out the more authentic from the less you cut that number down significantly. There have been attempts at bridging type events that seem to help but to get hundreds of folks together, it is difficuylt to maintain extremely high standards. One thing I've been trying to do in my sutler business is hit the more mainstream events with better gear and try to educate folks on the differences and encourage them to upgrade. Often these events have not had the more historically accurate gear sold at them and this is the first introduction to such gear some of these folks have seen. The conversation often starts out something like the customer exclaiming "$95 FOR A KEPI!!!!" which then allows me to show them the detailed differences between that $95 kepi and the $50 kepi they are wearing and how each compares to an original. I also talk about how getting more accurate gear will allow them to continue going to the events they are familiar with but will also allow them to attend events that had higher standards.

I'd say it's probably more a matter of logistics.  My reasoning is that there are probably enough "authentic" and upper tier mainstreamers to put together a 300-500 man event, but getting them all to the same place at the same time would take a bit of doing due to distances travelled by some.  The site and site preparation may be less daunting because of the experience levels of those sponsoring such an event.

Just make it happen in weather above fourty degrees, so I don't have to worry about a second round of career-ending frostbite.

The event can be as big as you can get the number of "Like minded" folks together. The largest I'd been to had a few over 200 participants.

Bill, you are such a fence sitter   !  Or is that a pot stirrer?

But really, a good question.  Let me ask you this, is W64 the most authentic for you because it's the last event you've attended?  Fresh and all?  We tried hard to give folks the best authentic experience possible at Rich Mountain, and Bummers is going to be (hopefully) a real feel too.  But whith huge numbers as RM, everyone and their brother wants something to go their way or interpret the rules the way they want.  I think smaller group efforts are best.  That is why I'm heading to Maryland in the morning for a great weekend.  No more than 45 or so expected.  But, to each their own I suppose.

The way we present events and define authenticity may have an impact too.  If we think only in terms of which messes or other known quantities are out there, aim primarily at them, and tack on a few pages of material culture standards, we will indeed probably limit the event to the numbers we've seen.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Known quantities are really valuable for planning purposes.  But I wonder what would happen if one went recruiting to "all sources" for an event that, while it specified a particular scenario, had only one key criterion for authenticity:  Saturday's event would be ten miles away from Friday night's camping ground and we would all have to get there on foot.

Think about all the verbiage that would then become unnecessary in the event guidelines -- no need to talk about "authentics only" or "our portrayal is one of soldiers on campaign" or "no cots and coolers" &c.  We might be surprised to see who showed up, and who didn't.

Or it could be a really small event...  

But it might help us discover whether the number of known like-minded folks is really the same as the total number of folks who are actually like-minded.

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Ken Cornett wrote : Bill, you are such a fence sitter   !  Or is that a pot stirrer? Let me ask you this, is W64 the most authentic for you because it's the last event you've attended?

Ken,

I'm far from an expert on authentic events, but yeah, IMHO Winter '64 was the most authentic event I've attended. For me, at least, the authenticity was in the details. Such things as our Furlough Papers, the ration issues, such as they were, the mail and box deliveries. I could go on and on. All these activities required huge amounts of pre-event work. Mr. Schaffner could discuss the amount of time involved in just writing up the Furlough Papers for 70 people. But, while the Winter of '64 Event prompted my question, this was a unique event and not likely to be replicated elsewhere. I was thinking more of the so-called campaign events.

It has just seemed to me that the combination of logistics and the availability of like minded individuals has limited the size of very authentic events to around 150/200 participants. If you took notice of the thread on "top tier" events; very few people were planning to attend more than two or three. Frankly, I see logistics as being more of a limiting factor on the size of these events than getting reenactor participation. You can stick fifty or seventy-five guys in a small woodlot and tell them to fend for themselves. It's another matter, if you need to find space for two or three hundred.  

Ten or fifteen years ago we did linear events on a regular basis, usually one per year. We called them Preservation Marches. As I remember, the longest march was from Harper's Ferry to Shepherdstown in one day. I still consider that march one of the better events I've attended. Of course, I was a lot younger then!    

Bill wrote:

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The Winter of '64 was by far, the most authentic event I've attended, but there were only 70 participants.

The initial question of course depends on how you define "highly authentic," and what you're used to in both size and authenticity. Among events where I'm expecting all participants to cooperate toward creating a "highly authentic" experience, W64 was typical of the larger ones I've attended and in my experience, that size seems to be pushing the maximum.

In other words, at that number of participants, it was as good as you could get. In my opinion that's about the upper limit for anything that still qualifies as highly authentic.

In the 2-25 person range, I find a noticeable increase in authenticity, and I set my expectations differently for events of that size. In other words, I've attended events that I'd say were more authentic than W64, but ONLY because they were smaller and thus easier to organize. So using a tighter definition of "highly authentic," I'd talk about a comfortable maximum of, I dunno, 25 or so.

Which is not to say that every event of under 25 people, or under 70 people, or whatever, is more authentic than larger events; it's just what practical potential they could have.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Fascinating discussion. I also agree logistics can be a big part, especially with the fuel prices today. I for one would have loved to have been at W-64, but because of the distance for me I could not have afforded the time off from work and would have had a difficult time affording the travel expense wither by air or land.

So far this year two of the local beignet and biscuit events have been attended.  Numbers have been significantly down at each.  There is another this weekend.  It’s reputation is solid and has been in existence for a double figure of years.  It will be interesting to see if fuel prices come into play at this one.

So, how many "Authentics" are there?

(someone had to write it)

My guess, less than 500. Maybe as few as 400.

Robert, I'm thinking Bill is talking about event logistics, and not individual reenactor expenses, such as travel. This truly is an interesting thread, as about every six months someone comes up with the same notion, and generally after they've attended a pretty darn good event.

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GrumpyDave wrote : So, how many "Authentics" are there?

Grumpy,

There are only twelve "Authentics". None of the twelve agree on who the other eleven are. They all agree I'm not one of them.

This was taken by memory from "Schaffner's Reenacting Rules".  

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Charles Heath wrote : I'm thinking Bill is talking about event logistics, and not individual reenactor expenses.

Charles,

Exactly. As I said in an earlier post, it's one thing to put fifty or seventy-five guys in a wood lot and expect them to, more or less, fend for themselves. It's another thing to put two hundred guys in that wood lot. You'd quickly have the same health and safety issues that existed during the actual Civil War. You'd need a lot more space or a lot more logistics.  

You were very involved with the logistics at the Payne's Farm Event. Do you remember the total number of participants?

Bill,

Yep, and about 42 other events over the years, but who is counting? The opening Payne's Farm AAR blurb from the Columbia Examiner, Vol. 7, Issue 1, was:

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LOCUST GROVE, Va. - Learning about a lesser-known campaign is sometimes more appealing than reenacting well known battles time and again. In late October 2005, about 250 men were the first reenactors since the Civil War to march to and re-create on the original ground part of an obscure battle called Payne’s Farm. Pre-event research, planning, strict adherence to the historical record, and extremely good reenactors combined to make Payne’s Farm 2005 one of the most memorable and historically accurate reenactments of the year. The Payne’s Farm event was held on the original battlefield two miles north of Locust Grove, Virginia (twenty-five miles west of Fredericksburg) on October 28-30, 2005, and was organized by the Stonewall Brigade on 685 acres owned by the Civil War Preservation Trust (CWPT). Confederate participants portrayed the 2nd Virginia of the Stonewall Brigade, while Federals portrayed the 151st New York of the Third Corps. These regiments’ brigades battled each other at Payne’s Farm in 1863. Payne’s Farm was the scene of the bloodiest fighting in the often-neglected Mine Run campaign (November 26-December 3, 1863). Because the campaign was in the late autumn in abysmally cold, miserable weather, and anti-climactically ended without a cataclysmic battle, it is rarely looked to by reenactment planners. Despite the campaign’s place in popular memory as one that had “no fighting”, 2,428 men became casualties during it—nearly two-thirds of who fell in Payne’s farm fields.

Kevin's figure of "250" is probably accurate enough. I was tempted to count up the registrants from the spreadsheets to compare registered with actual, but you already know how reenactor math goes.

To cut to the chase, you can (I have) spend what seems like a lifetime explaining these details to people, and they look at you as if you have three heads. Once they go through it a time or two, they begin to gather clues. While that may sound arrogant as heck, it's the way life is in a hobby infrastructure held together with paperclips and chewing gum.

The largest campaign event, that is an event with significant movement, I attended thus far had just under 1,200 participants formed into two brigades of three small infantry battalions with supporting cavalry, artillery, and freight wagons. The event lasted three days, and the logistics were well done.  I understand there was a slightly larger campaign event a few years before, and I want to interview two fellows who are still in the hobby who have managed to grace my door in recent months.

Two hundred guys in a wood lot isn't bad. Five hundred in that same wood lot isn't too bad either. String that same five hundred over a few miles and you have some fun and games with both admin and logistics. I've belched out the tables before, so there is no need to repeat that material here, but the snags increase exponentially with distance and numbers. If it is just number of fellows on that woodlot, then it's not so bad. We spend a surprising amount of time with this stuff, and the results are usually pretty good.

Some of the challenges involve placement and extraction of water resources. Glendale represents yet another event where the terrain and certain other restrictions mean portaging components, or adjusting the site specific locations. The NPS says no equines. The CWPT says no equines. ATVs are a no-no, and that leaves few options, which is why this stuff is so man-portable in the first place.

In the meantime, I'm still scratching my head as to what to do if the temps drop into the 20s at the Slaughter Pen in November. You may see me in the sporting goods section of Wal-Mart buying a bunch of those itty bitty propane heaters for the spring huts.

Sigh. I really do have fun with this.

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Charles Heath wrote : . Two hundred guys in a wood lot isn't bad. Five hundred in that same wood lot isn't too bad either. String that same five hundred over a few miles and you have some fun and games with both admin and logistics. I've belched out the tables before, so there is no need to repeat that material here, but the snags increase exponentially with distance and numbers. If it is just number of fellows on that woodlot, then it's not so bad. We spend a surprising amount of time with this stuff, and the results are usually pretty good. Sigh. I really do have fun with this.

Charles,

I understand the mechanics of providing the necessary amenities at events. The point I was making is it seems to me that the "authenticity" goes down as the need for logistics goes up, not to mention the need to come up with more folks willing to play Kabuki for the weekend.

To use my seventy-five guys in a wood lot example. You can expect them to go off into the woods with a shovel. Two hundred guys are going to need porta-potties.

I don't think it's minimum logistics, though, that limit authenticity. Yes, obviously, it's more difficult to meet the basic needs of 200 or 500 men for a few days than 50 or 100. But if that's the case, every event under 100 men ought to be more authentic than larger events, and obviously that's not the case.

I've seen events where the logistics provided by the organizers--scenario, pre-event research, land, amenities, etc.--could have supported a much higher level of accuracy, but the participants themselves dragged it down by turning the experience into what they wanted.

If the organizers set expectations at a "highly authentic" level, they either need to convince participants who normally wouldn't be that authentic to try it just this once, or find enough participants who are already that authentic to come. I think that's the real upper limit, because there are only so many reenactors who fit those categories.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Well, the authentic limit is in the 150,000 rifles, 50,000 horses range......

You'd like to think that land and logistics for 5,000 could be found.....the real problem is finding 1,000 highly authentics of which 200 or 400 could find the time, interest, car pool ride, kitchen pass, uniform, and correct rifle for the event.

So the limit is definitely a marketing vs target market function,,,,and standards/expectations. Personally I have zero interest in non battle events with low numbers of reenactors in far away places. Their are others with 'other' interests out there as well (has to have horses, has to have artillery, no civilians I'm not going, can I play Doctor?, etc.). You come up with an event 'scenario' and you immediately limit the interest, no one event appeals to all. You come up with event enforced Non Generic standards and you have less potential highly authentics who can attend. You limit it to skinny kids under age 45 and it becomes even more limited.

And then you can argue about what is highly authentic (no cannons? less than 10 miles per day? mixed weapons per uniform company? why can't we come up with a non fatigue blouse unit portrayal? how many horses? 44 man brigades or battalions, 4 company regiments, less than 2,000 rifles at a 'battle',,,,

If you relax the standards, then the Highly Authentic moniker goes right out the door.... Federals at the ChickADusty and Raymond did a pretty decent job..... carried it in on their backs, fought hard, tramped around, even had a casualty....throw in spectators (non EBUFU event) and an 'over there' sutlers set up...and as far as events go, not bad. Not 'highly authentic' but definitely mainstream + as opposed to a farb fest.

Don't forget RR1 and 2.....even with the horse trailered in CSA Cavalry.....highly authentic, lots of numbers, living out of pook sacks for days on end, lots of mileage tramped....

So the limit? couple of hundred at best at one place one time.....and hopefully you can't hear the cars on Rt. 11 or Saturn Parkway....

RJ,

Pardon me, but Bill was trying to have a serious discussion rather than provide more comedy.

Bill,

You and I are in agreement, and adding movement over a significant distance compounds matters. Providing water, wood, waste management, and parking is a challenge when it comes to estimating the need, and trying to camoflage the sources.  As the event's position on the ladder increases, so does the need to at least try and do something beyond the wood dump, pool refill trailer, dumpster on sutler row, long rows of little blue houses, and fighting through the parking lot during the tactical.

Sometimes you can improve things, sometimes you want to do so, but don't have the resources to make it happen. Before the electricity, marginal that it is courtesy of Allegheny Fizzle, died today, I gave you a fairly detailed response. Six hours later, and this is the truncated version. I'd actually enjoy a meaningful conversation about the kind of gear in the rear info that makes an event happen.

One of the things that I haven't seen done in the CW, but I have seen done well in Rev War is the simple burlap screen around portajohns. They are a necessary evil at many events, and providing a little bit of screening (think screen latrine with 8' poles in a wrap around "C" shape with four portajohns - 2 on each side - in each enclosure) that keeps the bright colors from shouting "HERE WE ARE!"  The key dimension to this appears to be making the opening in the "C" wide enough for the service truck to back in, park, and take care of the cleaning.

If a fellow grew up hunting, fishing, and hiking, crapping in the woods is a normal part of life. You and I are both old enough to remember when outhouses were very common in rural areas. If a fellow didn't experience this from an early age, then odds are a dump outside of a lavatory is a novelty of some sort. We do have some seriously huge fines and jail time associated with sanitary issues at some sites, so it is good to know when the butt cheeks should hit the plastic, and when less modern means can be adopted. Sometimes organizers can even get creative with this.

Solid waste is no fun at some events. I know the last ten or twelve events where I was the clean up guy on site, we had about a sandwich bag of waste leftover, and that was mostly picking up expended cartridges, a mess rag or two, used cleaning swatches and little bits of paper. If a possum or skunk can eat it, then it goes into the woodline. Sometimes a sardine or oyster can makes its way into a firepit, so that comes out.  I remember the mountains of garbage (some 15 feet high or more) after 135th G'burg, and was happy not to have to be bothered with all that disposal, but that's an extreme example.

Firewood is a bugaboo. It runs between $180 and $240 per cord here, that's a full cord, and not a face cord. Low cost and even free wood is available, depending on what quality you can live with, and how  you are going to cook. Estimating the amount and quality of wood for an event is an art form more than a science.

At an event in the near future, we have three fire pits. Gathering deadfall and squaw wood is illegal, so the alternative to be able to color within the lines is pre-split firewood dumped and stacked at the three locations -- and collected after the event to prevent equipment damage. The first firepit runs from Thursday to Sunday noon, so it needs the most wood. The good news it is easy to access. The second pit is going to need to be handcarried over about 400 yards, and the third pit -- you really don't want to know. Since the landowners on all six parcels prohibit equines, and ATV damage will easily cause bond forfeiture, the options are limited. Well, at least they didn't say anything about oxen. Since we know how the fires are going to be used, the amount of wood is fairly small.

In your case, with lots of folks cooking on the company street and keeping the fire burning 24/7, seriously estimating the amount of wood needed per battalion must be like ice skating on one of Dante's circles. People start burning wood on Tuesday, and the Wood Hawgs begin arriving and hording on Thursday. I don't envy you in the least.

Water? Well, we all know "water isn't important."  

Sometimes parking is easy, and sometimes it is a PITA. I'm not so sure if being able to park right next to your tent isn't a bad thing sometimes, and we have one event this year where IMHO the parking is way too close for a variety of reasons, but that is where the landowner says "park." No margin for movement on that line.

What did you have in mind?

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Charles Heath wrote : . At an event in the near future, we have three fire pits. Gathering deadfall and squaw wood is illegal, so the alternative to be able to color within the lines is pre-split firewood dumped and stacked at the three locations -- and collected after the event to prevent equipment damage. The first firepit runs from Thursday to Sunday noon, so it needs the most wood. The good news it is easy to access. The second pit is going to need to be handcarried over about 400 yards, and the third pit -- you really don't want to know. Since the landowners on all six parcels prohibit equines, and ATV damage will easily cause bond forfeiture, the options are limited. Well, at least they didn't say anything about oxen. Since we know how the fires are going to be used, the amount of wood is fairly small. What did you have in mind?

Charles,

This type of thing is what I meant about logistics having a negative effect on authenticity as numbers grow. Your solution of hand carrying firewood works at a small event. It would not work so well if you were dealing with 500 or a 1,000 people.

Over the years, I've observed any number of methods used to supply, water, wood, and sanitary facilities at the small, authentic events, that would be difficult to implement, if you were dealing with larger numbers. Good examples would be the water points on Rich Mountain, or the water point, on our line of march, at Payne's Farm.

I'm really asking questions here. I have a reasonable amount of experience with logistics, but it's all been with the 1,000 to 3,000 participant event. A different set of problems, that you touched on in your last post.

Frankly, the consensus of opinion seems to be that it's the number of reenactors and not logistics that limits the size of the more authentic events.