Mike,

She's also my favorite spooning partner.  Um, sorry to break that to you Hank....  

That clump of persimmon trees was mentioned in the pre-event information concerning the various edibles still available in mid-November on the Slaughter Pen Farm. The boys were informed of the crucial difference between wrinkled and smooth persimmon fruit. Therein lies the difference between pleasure and pucker, respectively.

The little lemons (Hank, the same type of trifoliates Graham found on his canoe trip) were especially good, as were the black walnuts, rose hips, and Bev and I have processed approximately 100 persimmon seeds for eventual use as confederate shirt buttons. This is kinda cool, because in five years of following Virginia Mescher's directions, this is the first time the seeds didn't mold. I look forward to the day these very seeds can be used on a homespun dress. One interesting aspect of the persimmon collecting adventures was noticing the growth pattern of the current clump of trees was due to the original tree being sawn down maybe 25 years ago, and what remains are maturing water sprouts. The old tree must have been over two feet in diameter, judging by the stump ring. That was a big persimmon tree.

When you saw us, we were on our way to recharge the two CS water tanks anchoring their right flank, and take photographs.  We were actually well to the left of the federal skirmishers who had their extreme left flank just north of the tenant house. If you had been able to withstand the brutal overcast skies that morning, then you'd have noticed us toting the familiar 4.5 gallon Bundy water cans on our return trip. We tend to clean as we go. By the way, the confederates used but 27 gallons of water Friday night, and had more than 130 gallons at their disposal in camp for Saturday and Sunday.

Since Bev was also one of the designated photographers for the event, she was able to take images of the federal skirmish line from the porch of the tenant house, and thanks to the miracle of high speed digital film, she captured rare images of the CS folks in camp. Some of those photos will be in the upcoming newsletter, and the persimmon images may be part of a future button article.

I'm glad you have a lasting memory of both of us at ATB, as Bev and I are rarely able to attend the same event together.

Quote :

Michael Schaffner wrote : Hank, if you simply don't feel heat and cold like the rest of us, then perhaps you're not in a very good position to discuss the problems faced by organizers of events involving the average reenactor.  That talent could come in handy, though, and is easily wasted -- the other privates at W64 would have enjoyed an extra rifle on guard mount.

Apparently you misread my post completely. What I said was that I feel cold more than most people, so I have to be prepared to deal with that. I do seem to feel heat less, so I'm lucky in that regard.

As far as W64, I realized very quickly that I chose the wrong role for that event, as the token sick guy. I had no one to spoon with if necessary, no one to consolidate blankets with, no one to help keep the stove going at night until I asked for help, and I was expected not to act energetic to keep warm.

Honestly, I believe I would have been warmer on guard duty. When I switched as requested to the role of "idiot" at the local plantation, I was out there in the woods behind the plantation that night just as long as the pickets. It was the warmest I'd been, because I could move around as much as I wanted. Just being able to stamp my feet in place and pace made all the difference, compared to sitting or lying or walking slowly.

But here's where there's an illustration of what I mean: When everybody arrived back in camp from the plantation, the organizers had kept a fire going in everyone else's hut. But not mine. It was completely cold. Sigh. Understandably, Noah wanted to get back to the warm officers' quarters, so he said I could either come with him, or he'd only stay to help me start the fire if we remained out of character (we were transitioning from being civilians to doctor and patient again, and had changed in my hut).

I told him forget it. If I was going to be cold and miserable, I at least wanted the enjoyment of reenacting.

I wasn't trying to be a tough-guy. I was actually choosing the option that would make me the [i]least miserable.[/i] So he went up to the officers' quarters, and I stayed in the cold hut, but at least without modern distractions, starting the stove.

And that, I think, is the main issue. I wasn't dangerously cold at that point, just annoyingly so, but it was genuinely more fun for me to reenact and be cold a little longer, than not reenact and be warm faster.

Noah's priorities apparently were different: if he had to be cold for any longer, he didn't want to bother with reenacting.

And I think that viewpoint, on a larger scale, is very typical of a lot of reenactors, and what makes them choose leaving an event over staying. Some people will be more comfortable than others in various weather, but when everyone gets to their own level of noticeable-but-not-life-threatening discomfort, the fun of reenacting doesn't compensate for the discomfort, for a lot of reenactors. That's not good or bad, it just is. Reasonable people choose to do what they prefer.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

You and Bev make a fine looking couple, Charles, and I'd be happy to see more of you.  Just not on the skirmish line.

I'm glad you were out tending fires Friday night.  I just wish you'd got to mine.  I must have fed that thing four or five times but the predawn downpour wiped it out.  Luckily I got it started before the next wave.

Hank, I'm sure the sergeant of the guard would have been happy to help you warm up.  But I'm glad you got the stove started on your own.  I enjoyed all of your first person characterizations and believe they added a great deal to the event.  I was amazed at how well you and Noah did your work.  The civilians remain in my memory entirely different people from your military roles.

Still, I can't say that all my colleagues were entirely impressed with the idea of showing up at a winter "campaign" event as a patient in hospital.  The argument that it was more of a challenge than guard mount would be a hard sell, I'm afraid.  

But I want to go back to an earlier comment I made.  If we didn't suck up so much of the airways discussing our dismay, disgust, or inability to understand those who leave some of these events early, maybe we might actually hear from some of them and gain information useful for future events.

But from all the traffic I've seen, neither of you fellows really want to hear that.  You prefer your own caricature of the cowardly or uncommitted reenactor to the reality of folks who are just as committed as you are, but sometimes make different decisions.

Actually I can't really say "different" decisions, since we'll never know what either of you would really have done at ATB if you had been in their position.  You weren't.  I wasn't either, but I'm not condemning them.  Neither did anyone else there that I could see.

Boy, I'm going to miss this event organizing thing.............

Quote :

dustyswb wrote : Boy, I'm going to miss this event organizing thing.............

Dusty,

Want a staff job at Neshaminy? I can guarantee there will be enough canvas on site!  

Quote :

Michael Schaffner wrote : Still, I can't say that all my colleagues were entirely impressed with the idea of showing up at a winter "campaign" event as a patient in hospital.  The argument that it was more of a challenge than guard mount would be a hard sell, I'm afraid.

That was a campaign event? I thought it was just the opposite, a winter quarters event.  

As mentioned way above in this thread, medical scenarios are generally long on doctors, short on patients, so even though I have the knowledge for a doctor, I try to volunteer to be a patient when I can, to support other doctor-impressionists. The patient was a recurring role at the W64s from what I was told, but how the previous patient(s) stood it, I'll never know. I'd never do it again.

But then, I guess, you don't want to hear that. You prefer your caricature of the cowardly or uncommitted reenactor who wants to lie comfortably in bed the whole event, instead of standing guard.    

Quote :

Actually I can't really say "different" decisions, since we'll never know what either of you would really have done at ATB if you had been in their position.  You weren't.  I wasn't either, but I'm not condemning them.  Neither did anyone else there that I could see.

Where have I condemned anyone who decided to leave ATB (or any other event) early? I'm glad I wasn't there, but then, I wasn't there, so it doesn't matter to me if they did what they thought was best for them.

If you're reading a value judgment when I say that someone isn't enjoying reenacting enough to stay, that's not a value judgment. It's as neutral as me saying I don't enjoy bowling enough to drive down to the bowling alley and rent the shoes, despite the fact that lots of other people love it. So what? Not everybody enjoys every activity to the same degree.

But more importantly, if both organizers and participants are happy about the outcome of events they left early or were ended early, what really is the problem? Is there a groundswell of reenactors disappointed that A tents aren't available because they really really want to stay at events longer? Or are they happy to reenact for a while, but equally okay with leaving when things get bad?

Seriously, for whom is this a problem? Is it the organizers, when they see so many participants leaving that they can't carry out their plans? But that doesn't seem to be the case at ATB, since it was ended due to weather, not lack of participants.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Gentlemen,

This discussion was not about "After the Battle" or medical impressions at "Winter '64". It was about the advantages and disadvantages of prepositioning tents and/or flys, in case of bad weather, at early Spring and late Fall events.

The pissing contest is over!

Bill,

Don't rush to lock down this thread simply because of divergent viewpoints. In this age of namby-pambyism, disagreements are often looked upon as pissing contests, and this thread hasn't sunk to that level, and I hope it doesn't.  Fact is, unlike a number of threads on the AC Forum, I'm enjoying reading a thread where a bunch of yes men aren't slapping each others' backs.

Back to your original post:

Quote :

"...but what about bringing emergency canvas to CPH events?"

The confederates were offered the hay barn (integral to the registration area, but not used) and a three bay machine shed next to this barn, and decided to bail on the event anyway.  As you told me at the LHG Rem Day march, the rebs started departing shortly after midnight Friday.  Going through six to eight months of searching for canvas, installing it, and safeguarding it, wouldn't have made much difference, and would have simply added to the logistics burden. The vast majority of the firewood supplies were covered by canvas or oilcloth, but most participants take that for granted.

Oddly enough, at cold weather events a tent or building is reserved as a warming hut specifically for people who have a perceived frostbite or hypothermia issue. As the last confederate to be captured at the Winter 1864 2004 event, believe me when I say it was good to get near a fire. It was fun making the yanks work for it, and listening to them curse and complain as they fell through the ice while making the final sweep of the snow covered swamp.  Here's a link to one of the 2004 AARs:

http://www.columbiarifles.org/AAR/2004_Winter_AAR.htm

For those who missed the 2006 version, but the hospital account from "the other guy" isn't in there. I'm not sure why, but it may still be on the W64 listserver, or was included in the CW Historian article:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Winter+1864%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Quote :

I understand that people don't like using tents during most CPH events.

The quote above is an incorrect notion worth pointing out, and hopefully changing. Tentage is normally, usually, generally event specific, and a good number of progressive and hardcore events do have tentage erected, as appropriate. Camp Curtain and Chatham Manor were perfect examples of this, and, with any luck we can round up tentage between now and mid-April. It's a huge chore to do so.

I've seen several people write that Winter 1864 was a winter campaign event. The 2004, 2006, and 2008 events were winter encampments, and the campaign element for 2008 was nearly an adjunct in the form of the picket post scenario on Murphy's Orchard, and the foraging party that returned with the piggy.

Quote :

You and Bev make a fine looking couple, Charles, and I'd be happy to see more of you.  Just not on the skirmish line.

Once again, to clarify a purposeful deception, we weren't on the skirmish line, and Bev has the photographs to prove it.

One of the choices Team Kabuki has to make at events is how to service the water. For ATB the MSR was tadpole shaped, as the farm lane ran from the farmstead to the tenant house, looped by the bandaging station barn, and headed to the NPS property and thence to the railroad. Just at the RFP (CSXT now) right of way, the lane turned left and bordered the woodline. After passing the wooded area and the two ponds it continued over to the wind hedgerow paralleling the Shannon airport runway.  From there it continued about halfway to the farmstead, make a right turn in the middle of the field, and reconnected near the tenant house.

Obviously, driving a white Ford pickup truck through the middle of everything was not an option, so we trundled around afoot. Since everyone here has read the usual Kabuki materials online at least a hundred times, the short version is "modern people moving modern things are less of a sensory invasion than viewing people in period costume with modern items."  This works, and works well.  

Quote :

Actually I can't really say "different" decisions, since we'll never know what either of you would really have done at ATB if you had been in their position.  You weren't.

Having been with Hank in far worse situations, I have a very good idea as to what we would have done. Given the extensive amount of pre-event communication, basic cold weather confederate kit options, and having a four day warning prior to the event basically stating "it's gonna rain, lads," we can make some assumptions. The first being that we'd actually read the pre-event info (something few reeanactors do), and would have noted the advice to "bring our own poles" since cutting or removing vegetation was not permitted. While two uprights and a crosspiece would have been the norm, I'd have opted for a low bowfront shebang, since the precipitation was all but certain.  Essentially, one beanpole, and two pieces of kindling for stakes would have been just fine.  Once completed, a pair of field wise individuals who read their pre-event information would have grabbed their blankets for totin', and made full use of the wheat straw available. Man, what a luxury! I'm actually warm and dry just thinking about it!  Plus, with the fire nearby for warming, and some kind of hot beverage available (toasted rye coffee would have been divine), we'd have been set. Two men, two blankets, two overcoats, two oilcloths, and (this event encouraged shelter halves) at least one shelter half would have been rather nice. Hank may have had his lovely rubberized cape, too. If we'd had the pleasure of a third man, then we could have rigged up side curtains and had one more layer of wool over us. Hank, does that sound about right?

Quote :

I'm glad you were out tending fires Friday night.  I just wish you'd got to mine.

Tending fires and checking fires are two different matters. We went through some extraordinary fire prevention activities for the event, and a good number of these fires were awful darn close to the vulnerable wooden structures filled with dry wheat straw, as well as a considerable amount of leaf litter.

Even if we had erected tentage prior to the event starting, this crowd probably wouldn't have stayed. Just the way the cookie crumbled.

Quote :

Charles Heath wrote : Even if we had erected tentage prior to the event starting, this crowd probably wouldn't have stayed. Just the way the cookie crumbled.

I think that's the key point, right squarely on topic. Is it only the lack of larger tents that makes people leave events early? If those were provided, would they stay?

Some of the anecdotes offered in this thread indicate it may have more to do with a perception that "the event can't continue," with "the event" being defined as the activities in the original plans.

In other words, if an event is billed as an ongoing skirmish, but the last half of a weekend consisted of being holed up comfortably in A tents with so much rain that skirmishing was virtually impossible, would people be okay with that, or would they think "the event's over" and want to leave anyway? I'm guessing there would be a mass exodus anyway, but I dunno.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

One factor only briefly mentioned was the staggering no-sho ranger rate, in the form of approximately 1/3 of the confederate reenactors registered. IIRC, Kevin pointed out in a post-event report that number was 55. It had a breakdown of HMINC and those who couldn't bear to RSVP one way or the other.  I suspect some of the latter was Weatherchannelitis, based on previous events where this sort of thing happened.  The significance of the number is a good amount of the "friend factor" wasn't there in the form of spooning partners, drinking buddies, card players, etc. In a modern sense, a pre-event casualty rate of 33% plays heck with small unit cohesion, espirit de corps, and "hey, Bob's not here, and he had the skillet!"  Obviously, the next mess over probably had a skillet, boiler, hatchet, sheath knife, or whatever was missing from the standard food service equipment lineup.

On the subject of victuals, one plain, everyday, common feature of 99.98% percent of all events is the ration issue, and for the sake of something different, we didn't go through the vast amount of preparation that it takes for a ration issue. One CS company did have a ration issue, and, ironically, they were the first to break and run. Was it the food? Just kidding.  I do know at a great number of events where rain, sleet, snow, hail, or whatever was falling from the skies, and a kettle of something warm was going (usually for the express purpose of keeping morale high), that people didn't cut and run. The monsoon rains of the Chancellorsville-Wilderness 2004 event led to the bottomless kettle of coffee, and Goat Willis can tell you just how valuable that was. No word on whether the pine beetles came over for a cup of Joe or not.

Quote :

"...may have more to do with a perception that "the event can't continue," with "the event" being defined as the activities in the original plans."

Quite a few events have alternative endings lined up. The Death March X this year was one of those. The confederates had the choice of heading back to Culpeper over a short but steep route, or taking a much longer and far more fun trip on well compacted cinders on an abandoned RR grade.  We chose the latter, and it allowed the federals to evacuate the ambulatory and non-ambulatory wounded from the bandaging station, handle the prisoners, round up deserters, and generally take care of business without a heated rush. That was fun. Other events have similar choices, such as the endings for Out of Old Capitol Prison and The Long Walk, and they turned out just fine and dandy, IMHO.  Maybe free form events aren't for everyone.

Quote :

In other words, if an event is billed as an ongoing skirmish, but the....

A number of the confederates have said that they thought this event was a non-firing living history, so their expectations differed from the game plan in that it wasn't the typical SOYA LH in a park somewhere, nor was it the type of NPS living history where they could go into town to eat meals, sleep in a motel, and generally not fret about firing their muskets.  Nor was this a picket post type event where the participants kinda-sorta hang out in the woods for part of the weekend and then head home. Not all picket posts are this way, but it is worth pointing out the differences in participant expectations may have had something to do with the situation.

Maybe the hobby has lost its collective sense of adventure.