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Charles Heath wrote : Maybe the hobby has lost its collective sense of adventure.

Gentlemen,

It was not my intention to close down the thread, just get it back on topic.

There are roughly 400 folks who regularly attend the more authentic events. Curt Schmidt likes to talk about a person's "mental picture and expectations". It seems the folks who attend events like "After the Battle" and "Rich Mountain" have a far greater range of mental pictures and expectations then those of us who attend events like Cedar Creek and Neshaminy.

You also have the issue of stated expectations, real expectations and peer pressure. As a very good example, roughly half the guys who climbed Rich Mountain walked off the mountain on Saturday evening. Today, you'd be hard put to find many of those folks, who'd admit leaving the event early. Oh yeah, I was one of the guys who went hunting for their packs on Saturday. It's no secret I voted to stay on the mountain; but I had no good reason, other than I'd never left an event before. I choose to stay with my friends.

There has been a lot of discussion, on this thread, about the lack of field skills, lack of sufficient equipment, and the lack of the desire to "stick it out". As the old saying goes, these facts, while interesting; are irrelevant. It's been shown, time after time, that a healthy percentage of the folks, who attend the more authentic events, do not have the field skills, equipment, or most important, the desire to stick it out through thick and thin.

The question becomes, do you want to hold events for just those hardy souls who have shown the ability and desire to hang in there, no matter what? Or, do you want events that will accomidate those folks with a lesser constitution? (Or, maybe more sense!)

Bill, please re-think your numbers for the RM thought. Nearly 400 soldiers attended and no way did almost 200 leave. We lost 60 guys after the march on the yankee side which had 210 in attendance. Then half of them decided to return and finsh the event.  So we lost about 30 guys total on the blue side. And remember, it only got to a low of 61 degrees and we didn't use canvas   .  

--Last edited by Ken Cornett on 2008-12-23 14:15:21 --

Bill,

Like you I rarely leave an event early and when I do it is always arranged in advance due to some other commitment and the organizer knows at the beginning. I do have one slightly minor exception; at a couple of events in the past, my asthma kicked in. I was unable to fully participate both days but I was able to stay for the full event in a somewhat lesser capacity by guarding prisoners or doing a little cooking for the guys, etc.

Now I am no pillar of fitness so if I can stick it out for an event I think there are many more who could also. There has never been any doubt that I could not carry the water for any of the men of the era but I do enjoy trying to get into the mindset of what they went through.

To answer your question, I don't think there needs to be any watering down of the events per se but I do wish more people would at least give one a try. There are some events I know I can not do so I don't go and make it difficult for the organizers. We all have to remember that a few stragglers or people falling out was not that unusual during the war either so there is nothing "in-authentic" there either. I draw the line where people simply take their ball and go home because it isn't going the way they thought it would.

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Ken Cornett wrote : Bill, please re-think your numbers for the RM thought. Nearly 400 soldiers attended and no way did almost 200 leave. We lost less than 5 percent (my quick guess) that couldn't hack it. I can get the numbers.

Ken,

No way was I trying to pick on Rich Mountain. I should have been more clear. Of the Federals, who climbed the mountain, roughly half went looking for their packs. (Some carried them back up the mountain. Now, that's hardcore.)

Rich Mountain was one of the best event's I've attended. The march up the mountain was outstanding. The fight was good, and the evening spent with my friends, at the base of the mountain, was very nice. Really, the only bad part of the event was the arguments about whether to stay on the mountain or head down to our packs. Heck, stragglers and coffee coolers were part of every Civil War battle. We never left the site, just changed our base of operations!  

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The question becomes, do you want to hold events for just those hardy souls who have shown the ability and desire to hang in there, no matter what? Or, do you want events that will accomidate those folks with a lesser constitution? (Or, maybe more sense!)

Bill:  

Neither.  Its no fun with just a few folks to play with.   Its also not fun to play on a mild day and keep my clothes all neat and clean, with absolutely no opportunity for adventure.  

Solution:  TEACH fieldcraft.


Fieldcraft is just as much a part of the necessary knowledge as which end of the gun to load.  

Lets remove it from the military sphere just a moment, and turn to the civilian side.  One of the things I spend a whole lot of time teaching our new folks is  period clothing systems--how to layer in period, materials and construction, being able to work and travel.  

Then we spend time teaching one of those common knowledge things of the period:  how to make a bed or a pallet on the ground.  How to stay dry, or at least warm under those circumstances.  

Finally, we spend time on hot food, cold food, fire making and fire keeping, and treating wood and water as an expensive resource that takes time and energy to procure.  

In a part of the country where the reenacting season runs September to May, we're good to go down to 15 degrees before we really start thinking about going to the house.  This includes not only fit young women, but portly wimmen with breathing challenges and babies down to 1 month old.  

Its not an either-or.  Its a matter of presenting to the best of our knowledge and ability, the full gamut of what a period person, soldier or civilian, would know.  

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Spinster wrote :   Bill:   Fieldcraft is just as much a part of the necessary knowledge as which end of the gun to load.

Mrs. Lawson,

I'm just a Farb who attends a reasonable number of the more authentic events. I only know two things. First, in many situations, reenactors have far more restrictions on them then the origional soldiers did. Nobody ever told them they couldn't cut down a tree or cut the branches off a pine to make shelter. Second, life in the military just plain sucks from time to time. No amount of field craft is going to make it good all the time. Better maybe, but not good. That hasn't changed in a thousand years.

It's pretty obvious a lot of reenactors don't want to play in bad weather. As a good example, there's a reason you don't have events, in your part of the world, in August.

If event organizers don't want to have emergency tents available, how about demanding that participants bring sufficient cover and insuring there's enough material available to construct proper shelter? It might not end people bailing out, but it would sure cut down on the excuses.

Bill,

I guess I'm just assuming that part of field craft is looking at the conditions and planning for them.

Yes, in the Great Big Green Majick Truck, is, amoungst other things that may or may not get unloaded, saplings and rope.  This of course assumes I've got a fixed camp to haul into.  But much the same shelter can be built with rope as with saplings, unless one is insistent on camping in the middle of a cow pasture with nothing to anchor that rope to.  I'm rather partial to a 100 foot hank of thin hemp rope with a diameter of less than a number 2 pencil.  

Now, if fellers are not going to read their pre-event info enough to know they can't cut limbs, they are also not going to pay much attention to other requirements, like packing a shelter half.  

So, lets look at the economics of event provided 'emergency' canvas.  

In planning for Banks Grand Retreat, I did exactly that.  I knew what each family household was hauling in--enough to let them live for a week in snug quarters.  I also knew I had a giant unknown--the care and feeding of any men who fell out on the march, be it from fatigue, illness or injury.  I knew I could have a temperature range over a 50 degree span, and anything from snow to sauna.  I knew I could be dealing with anything from nobody, or a dozen fellers in various stages of distress.  

I purchased a Tentsmiths' 17 by 17 looped tarp, fully treated against flame and water.  Cost, with shipping, close to $350.
http://www.tentsmiths.com/tent-camp-accessories-canvastarps.html\
 
Then I had to put poles and rope and stakes with it.  Not the sort of cost one can take out of event registrations, and for me it represented 8 weeks of knitting for 5 hours every night, because thats how I paid for it.  

Was it used?  Marginally.

Was it necessary?  Not really.  

One man slept under it for 4 nights, and a couple more for one night.  It served as a gathering place for adults who needed a little respite from children.  It kept trunks of other emergency supplies dry during a rain that lasted a few hours and dumped 4 inches.  That particular task could have been done with any of the umpteen painted floor cloths I also hauled.    Most men who were stranded away from the army stepped down into a nearby ravine and set up their own shelter off their back.  

Here's what was useful---not extra canvas--EXTRA BLANKETS.  

In addition to my good period civilian blankets, I had a boatload of wool blankets of various quality, many of them being some sort of foreign military surplus that some vendors sell as period correct under the name 'emergency issue'.  

Those did get used, along with a couple of bearskins.

In the intervening years, the big fly gets used twice a year--as a sleeping fly attached to a brush arbor for a particular event, and as our fixed workroom shelter for spinning wheels and looms for my fall dye run, held at a site with 17,000 folks through the gate during that week.  

So, from my experience, if you want to take care of folks if the weather turns, blankets are the way to go, not canvas.    Oh, and I always have a bundle of lighter pine so I know I can get a fire.  


Yes, I do know military life just plain sucks from time to time.  Not really much different from civilian women and children turned out on the countryside with what they can carry.  Yes, we've done that too, and it does take planning, field craft, and the willingness of participants to deal with the challenges as they come.      

Oh, and Bill,

For us, the June-August window is not a no event zone.  It is simply a No CW event zone.    Folks do them down here, but we're just not much on them, as we get more bang for the buck by opting for the longer 18th century events in the summer months.  

We drop back a 100 years earlier for the summer months.  The year 1740 can be rather minimalist when it comes to clothing.  Yes, written accounts document the French farming women on the Alabamois adapting the native habit of wearing only a petticoat or waist wrap during the summer months  

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Spinster wrote : Bill, Yes, I do know military life just plain sucks from time to time.  Not really much different from civilian women and children turned out on the countryside with what they can carry.  Yes, we've done that too, and it does take planning, field craft, and the willingness of participants to deal with the challenges as they come.

Mrs. Lawson,

I don't think the average participant attends events with the idea that if the rain starts, they're out of there. But, too often, that's what happens. When they are packing up at home, the young studs figure they can survive anything. The reality hits home when they are soaking wet and have no place to go, except the parking lot.

I agree big flys can be a pain. They are heavy and require some hefty poles to hold them up. On the other hand, my Common Tent is in a bag, two feet long, one foot wide, and about four inches thick. It just seems it wouldn't be too difficult to have a few on site for emergencies. Wouldn't be too much more difficult to deal with than your extra blankets. (Also an excellent idea.)

I agree this is often a Confederate problem. Too many guys believe the myth that GGG Grand Dad went off to War with nothing but a rubber blanket and forty rounds of ammo. To a point that's true, but they were young and a lot of them died.

IMHO, it would be a big step forward if event organizers made it a point to check for the minimum amount of equipment at registration.

 

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Spinster wrote : Oh, and Bill, We drop back a 100 years earlier for the summer months.  The year 1740 can be rather minimalist when it comes to clothing.  Yes, written accounts document the French farming women on the Alabamois adapting the native habit of wearing only a petticoat or waist wrap during the summer months

Mrs. Lawson,

Please let me know when they are going to have a reenactment featuring French farming women on the Alabamois. It's a damn long drive, but I think I'll be able to make it!  

If staff at better events regularly took authenticity to the extreme of completing consolidated morning reports, and then publicized them, we'd know whether the attrition rate came to 5, 15, or 50 percent.  At Rich Mountain, Federal attrition came to about a third.  I base that on knapsack count, observation of the parking lot Sunday morning, and the evidence of before and after parade photographs linked to the AC Forum.  This puts it in about the same range as Recon III, where folks had their packs but the rain led a number of locals to go home, and the recent Bristoe Station, where a number of participants just didn't see any compelling reason to stay, I guess, despite decent weather.

In any event, I came across this recently while contemplating some upcoming excursions of the Loudon-Hampshire Mess:

"General hypothermia is the progressive loss of body heat with prolonged exposure to cold. Body heat loss is accelerated more rapidly when a person is wet because of sweat or working in a damp environment. Most cases of hypothermia develop in air temperatures between 30° & 50°F, but significant hypothermia can occur with air temperatures as high as 65°F (particularly when clothing is wet), or in the water at 72 degrees F."

http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000801-d000900/d000848/d000848.html

Contributing factors also include:

"Drug use or certain medications may inhibit the body's response to cold or impair judgment (examples include beta blocks, neuroleptic drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes);
"A cold or other disease, such as diabetes, atherosclerosis and hypothyroidism, may increase risk;
"Gender: male death rates due to cold exposure are greater than the rates for females; perhaps because of inherent risk-taking activities, body fat composition, or other physiological differences;
"Susceptibility increases with age;
"Exhaustion or immobilization, especially through injury or entrapment"

In other words, events that include a substantial complement of men over 40, some of whom take medication for pre-existing conditions such as high blood pressure or diabetes, and experience rainy conditions and temperatures below 65 degrees F, need to prepare for the weather, or raise enough preservation dollars to sustain potential litigation.

The Loudon-Hampshire Mess plans to continue marches throughout the winter.  The only time we ever cancelled was due to snow blocking the trail.  There are several I would have cancelled if we had planned to camp out that evening, because even at forty degrees you can build up quite a sweat in ten or fifteen miles and simply stopping becomes pretty uncomfortably cold.  That's not a problem if you get to drive home, otherwise I'd knock off till spring.

Bill,

No offense intended, but did you attend Rich Mountain? Actually, what were the last three events and years you attended them?

Thanks,
Jim Butler

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Jim wrote : Bill, No offense intended, but did you attend Rich Mountain? Actually, what were the last three events and years you attended them? Thanks, Jim Butler

Well Jim,

I was in your company at Rich Mountain. I was in the Group, who made the decision to march down the hill to our packs. Unlike some other folks, we informed the First Sergeant we were leaving.

Some other CPX events I've attended: War on the James, Paynes Farm, Winter '64, Glendale-Malvern Hill, Bristoe Station, and After the Battle. That doesn't include a number of living histories I've done with the CR's, Stonewall Brigade, and the RP's.

So yeah, I've spent a few weekends in the woods without a tent.

Bill,

My apologies...I was thinking of the other Bill (Bill Cross).  Is he still active in the hobby?
In regards, the RM, your men did discuss this with us before departing down the Mtn.  My opinion is that everyone has a threshold before they have had enough. Everyones threshold is different.  My threshold is being wet and then facing freezing temps. Sorry, I have done events and stuck it out, but I believe if it happened again I would leave. Maybe that makes me a wuss, maybe it doesn't...it just depends what your threshold is. Don't let anyone fool you...every reenactor has a limit. I do think you guys would have been fine on that mtn with us. Where all the SCAR guys new each other well, there was a level of trust that we would all see it through together. But you guys had not worked with us before and did not know truly weather you could trust us or not to work thru the night.  
Regards,
Jim

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Jim wrote : Bill, My apologies...I was thinking of the other Bill (Bill Cross).  Is he still active in the hobby?

Jim,

Bill Cross is still a member of the Rowdy Pards. Like many people, the real world has cut into the number of events he's been able to attend. Funny, among the Rowdy Pards, I'm known as "Bill, the other".

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Jim wrote : Bill, My opinion is that everyone has a threshold before they have had enough. Everyones threshold is different.

Jim,

As far as Rich Mountain was concerned. I don't think any of us were close to our threshold of pain. Our concern was what would happen if the weather turned bad again. We had two rubber blankets to share with six guys!

IMHO, a few tents on the top of that mountain would have solved the problem. As you remember, we were supposed to have captured a fixed Confederate position. It would have been nice to just move into their camp. There are enough fence sitters, like myself, who could have been asked to bring their tents. If the organizers wanted to keep the scenario secret, no problem. Just swear the tent bringers to secrecy. It worked for the "Confederates" at Winter '64.