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lhsnj wrote : This could be a misunderstanding but I thought it was 4-6 men in the tent and if there were 6 men, 2 would be on duty while 4 rested and then they would rotate out so that you wouldn't have more than 4 in there at one time.

Greg,

Great minds move in the same direction. That's exactly what I suggested over on the OTB Forum, where this subject first came up.  

I always have thought 6 was the number of men for a standard A tent. I too read it somewhere and never bothered to question the numbers or do the math. One of my other hobbies is backpacking, and most standard sleeping pads are 20" wide, which gives enough room to roll in place without disturbing others. Sooo, 20"x4 equals 6'8". By my ciphering, 4 men could easily sleep in a common A. With 2 on duty, it would seem to make sense, but hey I'm just an ole' hillbilly

Back to the original gist of the thread. I KNOW I won't step on anyone's toes with this one. My biggest peeve with reenactors is not coolers, cots, tents, obnoxious kids, etc. It is with Officers and NCOs who won't make the effort to be as Officer like and NCO like as possible. I figure no matter how you choose to camp, you darn well should know your duties and the correct commands. I cringe when I hear such nonsense as "Fire by files from the left", or hear a Confederate unit doing the Manual of Arms from Hardees and the Sgt. commands :"Right Shoulder Shift", or "In Place Rest". I told one 1st Sgt. (who shall remain nameless) to do his homework and teach his men the right way. Guess what? The very next weekend, his unit did the Manual of Arms in some random order known only to him. I can be as farby as it comes at times, but when MY Company drills, the commands and executions will be exactly as prescribed for NC Troops. All of our NCOs know they had better study the manual, because we are not going to look bad on the field through our own lack of attention to detail.There is no excuse for any unit not to know and use the proper commands per the manual their unit would have used. Period.
Sgt. Gregg Hensley
The McDowell Boys  

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Gregg Hensley wrote : I figure no matter how you choose to camp, you darn well should know your duties and the correct commands. I cringe when I hear such nonsense as "Fire by files from the left", or hear a Confederate unit doing the Manual of Arms from Hardees and the Sgt. commands :"Right Shoulder Shift", or "In Place Rest". I told one 1st Sgt. (who shall remain nameless) to do his homework and teach his men the right way. Guess what? The very next weekend, his unit did the Manual of Arms in some random order known only to him. I can be as farby as it comes at times, but when MY Company drills, the commands and executions will be exactly as prescribed for NC Troops. All of our NCOs know they had better study the manual, because we are not going to look bad on the field through our own lack of attention to detail.There is no excuse for any unit not to know and use the proper commands per the manual their unit would have used. Period. Sgt. Gregg Hensley The McDowell Boys

Maybe I missed something here, but what is wrong with Confederates using Right Shoulder shift?

I agree there is know "Fire by file from the left".

From Hardees 1855:
Right shoulder shift- ARMS.
One time and two motions.
215. (First motion.) Seize the piece with the right hand, below and near the left fore-arm, place the left hand under the butt, the heel of the butt between the first two fingers.

216. (Second motion.) Turn the piece with the left hand the lock plate upwards, carry it to the right shoulder, the left hand still holding the butt, the muzzle elevated; hold the piece in this position and-place the right hand upon the butt as is prescribed No. 210, and let fall the left hand by the side.

From Hardees 1862:
Right shoulder shift- ARMS.

One time and two motions.

210. (First motion.) Detach the piece perpendicularly from the shoulder with the right band, and seize it with the left between the lower band and guide-sight, raise the piece, the left hand at the height of the shoulder and four inches from it; place, at the same time, the right hand on the butt,  the beak between the first two fingers, the other two fingers under the butt plate.

211. (Second motion.) Quit the piece with the left hand, raise and place the piece on the right shoulder with the right hand the look plate upwards; let fall, at the same time, the left hand by the side.

I may could have written that post better. Confederates do use Right Shoulder Shift. As you stated it is in Hardees and my unit uses the position of RSS extensively. It is not, however, part of the Manual of Arms shown on page 82 of Hardees little blue book. When a Sgt. drills the troops, it should be by the manual and not in random order without proper knowledge. Too many reenactors (at least in my experience) can't seem to be bothered with learning the proper commands and the correct time to use them.  

This may not belong exclusively to mainstream units, but those do seem to have a higher proportion of folks who think that the rate of fire will actually affect "enemy" casualties.

I mean the command:

"Hurry up and load!"

This might not even be an anachronism, but I hate to see anyone rushed through the handling of a weapon.  I think it's a safety issue, and perhaps a wee bit unprofessional.  

It makes me think of August Willich deliberately having his men cease fire, while still under fire, and putting them through the manual arms to calm them down before opening fire again with more deliberate aim.

Mike,

From my reading, the usual program was to go into action loaded. The unit would fire a volley when the situation was right. The troops reloaded and the next order was "Fire by File" and the guys would load a fire just as fast as they could and the fouling in their piece would allow. According to my experiments, that's about two rounds per minute. The only way I have ever been able to fire three live rounds in a minute was to start with a loaded weapon, and nobody was shooting back at me!

I think that old saw about shooting three rounds a minute goes back to the old smooth bore flintlocks. In a rush, you didn't even need to prime those bad boys. The touch hole was so big, that enough powder would trickle into the pan, just by rapping the the stock, to get ignition when you cocked the weapon and pulled the trigger.

I would agree that most reenactors, no matter where they fit on the authenticity scale, shoot way too quickly, mainly because we can and our officers order us to load and shoot as quickly as we can. We really aren't loading our weapons, even when we load by the numbers, and use our rammers. That big hunk of lead really slows down the procedure!  

Bill, you might be pleased to know that Hans Delbruck (I don't have the cite but could get it), thought that the actual rate of fire with the minie rifle (before the use of the Dreyse needle-gun became universal) was 1 1/2 rounds a minute, even though the Prussians also aimed for 3 rounds a minute on the drill field.

A word or expression I am getting tired of hearing from sargents or officers is  "lads".  Seems like every officer or sargent uses it nowadays--    

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Poor Private wrote : A word or expression I am getting tired of hearing from sargents or officers is  "lads".

Man, you must've met Andy Waski!  

To Andy, I'm a 61 year old lad!  

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Michael Schaffner wrote : Bill, you might be pleased to know that Hans Delbruck (I don't have the cite but could get it), thought that the actual rate of fire with the minie rifle (before the use of the Dreyse needle-gun became universal) was 1 1/2 rounds a minute, even though the Prussians also aimed for 3 rounds a minute on the drill field.

For what its worth, years ago when I used to shoot with the N-SSA, most guys routinely managed three aimed shots per minute and some even managed four. Granted the rammer wasnt returned to the stock after each round but left sticking out of the ground directly in front of each shooter and naturally no one was shooting back.
Dave

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Dave Myrick wrote :   For what its worth, years ago when I used to shoot with the N-SSA, most guys routinely managed three aimed shots per minute and some even managed four.

Dave,

So we understand each other. The N-SSA guys started with an unloaded weapon and fired three aimed shots at twenty seconds per shot and some guys got it down to fifteen seconds per shot?

I did my tests with minnie bullets sized to .575, using a standard sixty grain powder charge. Do you happen to remember what size rounds you guys were using? Also, do you remember what the cartridges were like and what powder charges were used?

I'm not doubting your statement. I'm just trying to figure out what they were doing to speed up loading so much.
 

You resize the bullets so they literally fall down the barrel. Not so accurate but it sure speeds things up.

Bill,
Here's a long answer to a short question.

Rounds are typically sized .002" smaller then the groove diameter of the bore and lubricated. Powder loads varied greatly from weapon to weapon but were typically in the 40 to 50 grain range of 3f. 48 grains of 3f is roughly equivalent to 60 grains of 2f. Proper sizing minimizes the windage between the bullet and the bore in the breech area. This leads to a gas seal being formed more quickly and a more efficient combustion of the powder with less fouling. The fouling that does occur is kept soft for a short time by the lube, usually a mixture of lard and beeswax.
The vast majority of cartridges were made with the premeasured powder loads, poured into a 1/2" diameter plastic tube, with the bullet pressed into the tube nose. the "cartridge" was placed into the cartridge box usually into a hole in wooden block to keep them upright and organized. All weapons a verified clear and unloaded when the shooters step to the firing line but are loaded before the clock begins. Thus each event starts with a loaded musket
When loading you dont tear any paper, but you do have to separate the bullet from the tube, safely pour the powder down the bore, transfer the bullet to the bore without "thumbing" the bullet into the bore. Cook offs are a very real concern while not exactly frequent, they happen often enough to keep everyone on their toes.
So yea they typpically do get those 3 aimed shots loaded and fired at 20 second intervals. Another thing to keep in mind, is that they are not aiming at man sized targets. 50 yard targets might be clay birds, soda cans, 4inch wooden blocks, film canisters even eggs, all hanging while the 100 yard tagets might be a 6 inch tile, a 2 liter soda bottle. "Rapid fire" tagets consist of a 6 inch pie plate at 50 yards and a 12 inch square of drywall for 100 yards. The rapid fire events are timed 2 minute events where the target doesnt break but rather the number of holes counted and leveraged against the number of shots fired.
There are some significant differences between the wartime practices and those used in competition but to my mind they offset each other and sort of balance things out, with one exception. That being the lack of return fire.
It is quite an experience to see a 1/4 mile long firing line, filled with men standing virtually shoulder to shoulder, and another all together to hear the crash of that first volley after the clock begins.

I found the Delbruck quote, which comes from an Excursus on "The Rapidity of Fire in the Eighteenth Century" in which he goes on to discuss 19th century rates.  It's on pp. 285-287 Volume IV of the History of the Art of War:  The Dawn of Modern Warfare:

"In order to understand these crass contradictions [i.e., different reported rates of fire], we must distinguish between the shooting of the individual man and that of the closed unit; between the achievement of individuals, especially talented ones, and the average achievement; between practice without powder, with powder, and with powder and ball; between shooting without command and the shooting of entire units on command.
"Of importance in military history, of course, is only live firing, which goes considerably more slowly than firing with blanks, because the ball must be rammed down into the barrel....
"General von Caemmerer once told me that with the old needle gun a good unit could fire five times in a minute and that a noncommissioned officer who came from the firing school was greatly admired because he fired seven times per minute.
"With the Minie gun, with which the Prussian army was armed for a short time previously, firing was at the rate of one and a half shots per minute."

I'm not saying it can't be done faster -- I once timed a Park Service employee at Jamestown who got off a matchlock shot in 18 seconds -- I'm just saying it wouldn't be typical.

Okay Dave,

I don't feel so bad. I was able to get off three rounds in a minute if I started with a loaded rifle!  

I can see a number of reasons the NSSA guys shoot faster. First, they don't replace their rammers. (I doubt the real soldiers did either, when they were on defense) Second, there is a "fumble factor" when handling loose paper cartridges and removing the minnie bullet from it's paper wrapping. Third, you get a lot more fouling using 60 grains of 2F powder, even with the smaller bullet. (.575)

BTW,

We like people to sign their full name to their posts. You can easily set up a signiture block, that will automatically sign your name.

Well for me a couple of things.

1) Officers stopping the line 30 yds from the enemy.  'Dressing' up and then waiting for the command from the battalion commander to fire.  Just how many men in real life do they think they'd have left.  I can THROW a bullet at a group of men at 30 yds and hit somebody.

2) Officers who don't realize that when walking through the woods route step (or at least trail arms) is the best way to keep rifles from breaking up the canopy.

3) Officers who HAVE to be mounted when they only have marginal control over their horses and the situation it tactically inappropriate.

(Anybody see a theme here?)

4) Guys who have to be up all night partying.  If they have that much energy let them do picket duty.

5) And what's with staying in camp and not participating on the second day?  Too much partying Saturday night (see point 4)?

I guess that is all for now.

Oh Yeah

And the idiot who thinks right shoulder shift somehow uses a different set of muscles than order arms.

I swear they just go back and forth because they can't remember the command for support arms.

Bob,

I'm getting the feeling you don't think much of your officers.    

Speaking of officers, dontcha just love it when they decide the company needs to march somewhere while they're standing at order arms. "Right face", "Forward, march". "What should we do, just drag our muskets along with us, Capt."?  

Gregg Hensley
22nd NCST, Co. K

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Gregg Hensley wrote : Speaking of officers, dontcha just love it when they decide the company needs to march somewhere while they're standing at order arms. "Right face", "Forward, march". "What should we do, just drag our muskets along with us, Capt."?   Gregg Hensley 22nd NCST, Co. K

The natural reaction would be to go to the trail arms.. and then the Sgt or officer can command a shift in arms from there.