What/where are the boundaries on the mainstream box?

Mainstream Discussion
This area is for the mainstream reenactor. Please keep subjects focused on this matter.

I am new to this board but not new to the hobby or the disdain to which Charles holds the mainstream community.  Since the thread was “Mainstream-What do we bring to the Table?” I guess I am surprised to see him on this thread since it says "We."

Charles, Welcome to Mainstream!  

--Last edited by barry smithson on 2007-11-11 15:11:15 --

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Barry Smithson wrote : Mainstream Discussion This area is for the mainstream reenactor. Please keep subjects focused on this matter......

I'm with Barry. When did the thread topic change to "What's wrong with the mainstream?"

Just thinking outside that box...  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2007-11-11 15:19:36 --

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Charles Heath wrote : Bernie, The month the firestorm broke out in earnest was May 2002, and the "we" in this instance would be those who participated in concurrent discussions on the AC, Szabo's, and as the war spread into June and July, the OTB Forum.

Was it also before the dividing of the hobby into the now-standard groupings?  If so, that may explain some of the difference between then and now.

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Artillery is one of those items the hobby has in great excess, no, let me revise that, in extreme excess. Note that I did say "willing to travel." Even within the world of static redlegs one sees a broad spectrum from pipes on implement wheels to scale pieces to groups who take it to a higher level.

Obviously, it is better to have horse-drawn (sixes instead of fours, I believe, for the Union, correct?).  It is also good to eliminate the dangerous tubes that shouldn't be in the field at all.  The scale guns are not ideal, but with the expense, I can understand why they are favored by some in that branch.

Does a full sized, horse-drawn battery now exist?  I'm talking about the entire battery with all the trimmings, not a section.

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Think outside that mainstream box, Bernie. You can do it.

Wrong place to do that here.  ;)  I think you'd have to admit that I actually do from time to time, at least.

What I'd suggest is that you may find it good to sometimes think inside that box, if only for the nuggets to be mined, and for perspective.  I realize you've been at it for quite some time, but there's too much to be known at any level to think that one can have gotten it all before moving on.

Barry,

Thanks! I went to Shippensburg last year, so using the Bill Rodman Immutable Law of Fencesitting, that event qualifies me as a "fencesitter" for two whole years.  I really need to make it to Mumford this year, or have a lapse.  

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flattop32355 wrote :  Was it also before the dividing of the hobby into the now-standard groupings?  If so, that may explain some of the difference between then and now.

Bernie, that would have been 5 or 6 years after the classifications promulgated by the nom de plume Prof. Phineas Pharb; 20 or 21 years after those printed in Camp Chase Gazette, and 36 or 37 years after the ones developed in the Centennial Era. I hope this helps, and if you want to look up the dates on Paul Calloway's and Cal Kinzer's later articles on the subject, feel free to do so.

The last time I saw anything approaching a full battery with caissons, and a couple of wagons (but not the issue battery wagon, was 1998. I do not recall if they had a forge with them. Needless to say, it was impressive, to say the least.

I may be wrong, but I do not believe a full battery, as one "club" still exists, if it ever did. The norm appears to be single guns for the most part, with a few two gun sections out there. If you think about the coordination of resources, as often mentioned in various and sundry EBUFU discussions, you'll understand how difficult a task it is to get more than a handful of mounted pieces in one place at one time. Of course, that doesn't rule out moving static pieces one at a time with one operational limber.

Doug, a Ford! A green Ford truck! You radical, you!  

Shred the box. Move forward.

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Charles Heath wrote : Numbers. Other than that?

Well Charles,

How many guys in your unit got into the Hobby as Mainstreamers? How many of the high quality suppliers would be in business if they had to depend on the CPH for all their sales? How much of Cedar Creek would now be a industrial park without Mainstreamers? Over the years, how many people have been exposed to Civil War history at the various Mainstreamer events?

Heck, what would all the CPHer's, who attend Mainstream events on a regular basis, do without Mainstreamers?  

Bill,

Still boils down to numbers, doesn't it? That's the end all, be all, of the mainstream hobby.

The jab about vendors is interesting to me, because the bulk of the truly high end makers are not online and are typically word of mouth only.  I'll toss on the iconoclast hat for a moment to suggest some of the gear made by Jarnigan in recent years is actually better than that of the maker of the month club.  Not all, but some.

Charles,

First, I purchase almost everything from the approved vendors list on the AC or from the recommendations that I have picked up from the reading there.  I also get quite a bit from the Buy/Sell section too!  So have many others that I know from the "Mainstream" wing of the hobby.  Not all of those are online.  I think Bill's point is still valid.

Second, you keep stating that numbers are the only thing that Mainstream has contributed.  As has been pointed out, how many of the C/P/H community joined the hobby without ever having seen, interacted, been exposed to or been a member of the Mainstream faction?  How did these people find out about the hobby?  How did they even know that it existed?  I would be willing to bet that if you did a poll, most (even if they did not want to admit it) were exposed to the hobby by the Mainstream.

Those who wanted to find a different experience did.  More will.  Not all want the same thing.  I'm fine with that.  I like both factions for different reasons and have done both.  I just grow tired of comments like "other than numbers?"  Be honest, how many in the C/P/H side would exist if it were not for the "lowly" Mainstreamers who may have first planted the seed?

Being mainstream, being aware mainstream is held in low esteem by the hobby’s other practitioners, and being convinced no one is going to change their mind one iota, I wonder if the argument is more important than what the argument addresses?  Could it possibly be the argument is the issue, not perceptions of rightness or wrongness, not mainstream, or anything else?  Is the argument an essential aspect of the hobby?  There seems to be something of the Phoenix about reenactment arguing in that when finally appearing to flame out it cranks up once again with equal vigor.  What are the chances it will ever end?  

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Curtis Makamson wrote : Is the argument an essential aspect of the hobby?  What are the chances it will ever end?

Curtis:

For some, yes. And for the second question, for some, never. At least as long as they're able to draw breath.

There were possibilities of a pretty fair thread on what we do/can bring to the table. Now, I fear we've had to circle the wagons. Darn shame.  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2007-11-12 19:55:08 --

Curtis,

You are right.  I get sucked in sometimes too to the argument.  There is a folder for the C/P/H side.  

C/P/H Discussion
This area is for the authentic reenactor. Please keep it to this subject.

I should have just left it where I did before when you asked what the boundaries were.  Perhaps the moderators need to define the boundaries.  I am just going but what is listed on the site.

Mainstream Discussion
This area is for the mainstream reenactor. Please keep subjects focused on this matter.

I guess I just get tired of the dismissal of the Mainstream.  

Perhaps bringing the topic back around might require someone asking just what the "table" is and whether we're all at it together for some purpose.
By its own definition, mainstream is a pretty big umbrella with a wide variety of types inclusive. My own belief is that the stagnant nature of mainstream events is a factor in the decrease of reenactors to the point that what is considered mainstream today is basically whats left of folks who cant or wont progress.
Those who want something better or different either move to better events or they leave the hobby.

Kent Dorr
"Devils Own Mess"
 

Kent,

In my first post I described what I thought that I brought to the table.  After that I got caught up responding to the dismissive comments.  Mark was right when he said that the thread had good potential.  I am just as guilty.  I just do not know where to discuss mainstream reenacting without having to defend it other than in the mainstream folder.  

Am I missing something?

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OVVI wrote : My own belief is that the stagnant nature of mainstream events is a factor in the decrease of reenactors to the point that what is considered mainstream today is basically whats left of folks who cant or wont progress.

Just so I understand exactly what is being said, Mr. Dorr, are you saying those of us who are mainstream are the dregs of the hobby?  If so, I’m not going to challenge it one way or the other.  I just want to make certain I explicitly understand what you have written.

Curtis, I took Kent's comment to mean that many mainstream events are same ole-same ole every year and it may be where numbers are dropping.  I for one do primarily CPH events because the mainstream events were getting quite boring for me.  But that is me, not everyone else.  I've run into Kent over the years at various types of events here in Ohio, and I know exactly what he is driving towards.  

Maybe the question should be "What can mainstream events do differently to put that spark back into the reenactor?"  Maybe it's the event organizers themselves.  I basically got tired of the roll call to breakfast to drill to camp life to lunch to battle to more camp life to bon fire agendas.  Many folks love this and that is fine, but I have/had the ability to make a choice for what I want out of the hobby.  

I started mainstream and still associate with my friends that do it.  I will never forget my roots because it is where it all started for me.  Us versus Them arguements really don't make much sense to me because it's a waste of time.

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Charles Heath wrote : Numbers. Other than that?

I gave you a bunch of non numbers items for you to munch on.....did you miss the post?

Mainstream

Mainstream folder, CPH need not apply. One thing I think mainstream brings to the hobby is a respect for others. Something Charles and others who think like he does lacks. I don't go on the CPH folder. Like a trash running dog after awhile no one follows fewer listen.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

Doug, enough is enough.  Consider this a warning.