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silas wrote :  The best place to place a company of soldiers with short barreled rifles where they are less dangerous to themselves and others is as skirmishers.

Silas,

I only have to worry about this stuff once a year, which is more than enough. I utilize the dismounted cavalry, along with the mounted cavalry to find and fix the "enemy" during our tacticals. During the scrïpted scenarios, the Dismounts have done an excellent job keeping the non-game players in check. Frankly, I'm glad to have them.

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Bill wrote : Frankly, I'm glad to have them.

Bill:

Marry me?  (Not that there would be anything wrong with that)  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2008-01-27 17:48:38 --

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MStuart wrote :   Bill: Marry me?  (Not that there would be anything wrong with that)

Mark,

I think my wife would trade me for a new kitchen floor!

Bill and Mark,

Remind me to find another puppy pile to join with at the next cold event.

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toptimlrd wrote : Bill and Mark, Remind me to find another puppy pile to join with at the next cold event.

Actually it isn't so bad in there with Bill.  He kept my feet warm in Ft Leaky during one McDowell.

OK I will bite. Bill, et al....let me know when you find a quote that dismounted cavalrymen fought LIKE INFANTRY. Two ranks, shoulder to shoulder with a light touch of the elbow, 13" from the buckle of the rear rank to the back of the knapsack/bedroll/back of the front rank.

The reason that Berdan's, CSA Sharpshooter Battalions, and dismounted cavalry fight in single ranks, open order, seeking cover on their own volition and NOT LIKE INFANTRY is simple:
A) training/drill B) mission  C) they could (those breach loaders are a lot easier to load whilst prone or in a hidey hole than the infantry long rifles d) not as many of them per regiment....yep they tended to not put as many rifles/carbines on the line so had to spread out to cover ground. That's why they are employed at our reenactments as skirmishers. That's how they were used. Have yourselves a quick read on the USA cavalry raids near Richmond.....the ones where they killed x,000 spent horses on the retreat, dismounting thousands of troopers. Let me know when you find the passage on these dismounts fighting AS INFANTRY, armed as Infanty, whilst they hurried to keep up with their more fortunate mounted comrades.

Let me know when dismounted cavalry assaults such as the South Battlefield at GBurg July 3rd 1863, Trevillian's Station's 2nd Day, Selma AL were done in 2 ranks, rear rank firing over the shoulder of the front rank. AS INFANTRY.

My GGG Uncle cavalry bugler Charles Converse received a mortal wound at Petersburg, near the Crater. His entire regiment had not received horses up to that point....and were one of four horseless or cannonless regiments in the Provisional Brigade. His 27th NY Cavalry was armed with Smith Carbines Bill, not Springfield's nor Enfields.

CSA cavalry was armed with more long rifles than their Federal counterparts....whether they were mounted or dismounted. (they had more shotguns too) and many of the Texas Horseless Cavalry units were cavalry in name only.....they were armed with long rifles and fought like infantry....2 ranks, shoulder to shoulder.

Federal Cavalry, even horseless or dismounted were largely armed with Carbines (5th and 6th MI being the obvious exceptions). They weren't armed like infantry, nor fought like infantry. Mounted Infantry units like Wilder's or the 9th Illinois (on mules) were armed and fought like infantry.

Most line infantry reenacting units simply don't know the skirmish drill, by the bugle.....that's why we don't employ them as skirmishers. The exceptions are a wonder to behold....our local 10th IL and 104th IL can skirmish rings around 99% of reenacting units....by the bugle....at 500+ yards. You may have seen them in action at Perryville out in front of the Western Brigade.

We use cavalry dismounts (most of ours have just jumped off of their horse) in single ranks as skirmishers, by the bugle....because they are drilled in it, respond to the bugle, and that's how they were historically employed. Not as Infantry.

So Silas, let me know when you read about those Musketoons and Carbines being used firing from a rear rank....or Blackford's Sharpshooter Battalions firing their Enfield Rifle's over the front ranks shoulders....

I wasn't promoting the use of unmounted cavalry, RJ.  We don't have unmounted cavalry in the AoT.  I veer clear of unmounteds at the few local events I attend because I don't want to say something I'll regret later.  Same for this forum.  I'll play it cool here.  

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RJSamp wrote : OK I will bite. Bill, et al....let me know when you find a quote that dismounted cavalrymen fought LIKE INFANTRY. Two ranks, shoulder to shoulder with a light touch of the elbow, 13" from the buckle of the rear rank to the back of the knapsack/bedroll/back of the front rank.

RJ,

See my earlier post. There were two difinitions of dismounted cavalry. Those without horses and those with horses someplace else.

Those units without horses were normally used as infantry. The dismounted cavalry, who had been issued standard infantry weapons most likely fought like any other infantry unit. Those units who had been issued carbines most likely fought in a single rank. Given the increased rate of fire from a breach loader, that makes sense.

BTW, why do you always sound like you are mad at the world?    

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silas wrote : I veer clear of unmounteds at the few local events I attend because I don't want to say something I'll regret later.  Same for this forum.  I'll play it cool here.

Silas,

I think we all agree there are dismounted units whose impression and behavior both leave a lot to be desired. My guess is the better dismounted units are more aware of this than anyone else.

I'm lucky. The dismounts who show up at Neshaminy aren't carrying four pistols and a Henry Rifle. Coon bones, feathers, and yellow are all at a minimum. They play by the rules and do what I ask of them. Pretty difficult to find fault with that.  

I do mainstream dismounted Cavalry.  Most of the time we are used as skirmishers or flanking units and this suits me fine.  I try to follow the battle plan and follow the orders I am given and try to stay away from the Yahoo scenario stuff.  My uniform has the goldenrod trim and for a carbine I use an original Sharps and Hankins for early war and a Spencer carbine for late war.  
For the battle scenarios our justification for our dismounted impression is that we have already ridding to the battle, dismounted and we are now fighting on foot as skirmishers with the horses safely in the rear.
In the miniature recreations of battles that we do most of the time their really isn’t enough room for mounted units to ride.  In the real battles if a man on a horse got within 100 yards of a company of enemy infantry his chances of survival were very small.  Even if the infantry was unable to shoot him they would most certainly be able to hit his horse.  On the other hand at 100 yards a man on horse back trying to shoot a carbine at a man size target is a very daunting task.  You have to remember that the horse is breathing and may not be standing in the correct position to shoulder a carbine at the enemy, you are breathing and trying to hold the rains and you would probably be very nervous.  This makes your chance of actually hitting something from horseback with a carbine very unlikely.
I truly believe that doing Cavalry dismounted is more accurate than on horse back.  This is only my opinion your mileage may very.  

--Last edited by Major on 2008-02-05 19:08:09 --

In Texas we see a lot of dismounted cavalry fighting on both sides. While being in full agreement that many, maybe even half, of the dismounted guys have awful impressions, it's true the other half usually try to get it right. But I do often wonder where dismounted cavalry learn their single-rank skirmish drill. So, to Major and RJ,  what drill manual do you use to teach and learn "how" to skirmish as dismounted troopers? I never see them deploying in groups of four men as we do as skirmishing infantry. I don't see them pairing up and working together so one is always loaded. I don't see them leap-frogging when advancing or retiring. I don't see them rallying on the reserve. Heck, I don't see a reserve.  Do the cavalry drill manuals include how to engage as a dismounted fighting cavalryman?

Phil McBride
The Alamo Rifles

Phil
We try to use Poinsett’s as much as possible.  A wile ago we got some books called Poinsett’s Cavalry Tactics for Reenactors, by Michael Riggleman.  The books were published by the 2nd US Cavalry Co. A/9th VA Cavalry Co. D Training Committee.  In it there is a lot of dismounted drill diagrams and descrïptions.  
Many times we are tacked onto the left end of an infantry company and we have to adjust our drill to fit in with them and for safety reasons.  If we are left on our own we try to stick with the Poinsett’s tactics.
When fighting as skirmishers we have to adjust our drill according to the circumstances.  If we are on our own Poinsett’s tell us to move forward and fan out to form a skirmish line and if there are enough of us we have a reserve but most of the time their isn’t enough and we all advance as skirmishers.  If we are attached to infantry many times we will take intervals just like the infantry to avoid any confusing with the infantry officers.  It’s not a perfect solution but it seams to work for us.
Terry

Phil,
Are you asking a serious question or are you baiting them?  The manual only covers the commands for dismounting to prepare to fight on foot, where the numbers four are to go, the officer in charge of the fours are to be and how to rally and remount.  Other than that, the commands for fighting on foot are the same as fighting from the saddle.  The command and control is the same.  That is why infantry commands do not work and why most infantry commanders do not know how to command them.

This is the mainstream folder and I agree that there is a roll for dismounted cavalry when done right.  I do not agree that dismounted cavalry is more correct than mounted.  There are mounted cavalry units who do go to ground to fight.  We know the drill and are happy to do it.

What with the cost of fuel and hauling the single horsepower mode of transportation more of our mounted will be going dismounted in the future.  There has even been a bit of talk about switching over to an infantry impression to get away from some of the horse related expense.  I hope that does not happen. Our dismounted contingent uses the same maneuver commands as the mounted.

To Barry, No, my question about dismounted cavalry drill wasn't to bait anyone. I've never read a cavalry drill manual, and your comments about the contents of the drill manual in regards to dismounted skirmishing are new information to me.

You and I probably attend some of the same events in Texas, and so you also have most likely watched from your horse as the dismounted troops are led in single file out past we infantry-in-waiting, and then watch as they fire company volleys, leaving all of them unloaded at the same time, and then advance and retire simultaneously, with no one covering the retiring troopers. That sort of thing looks amateurish, as it would have been flaunting common sense to not cover yourself from a quick cavalry charge when all had just fired, or all were moving to the rear together.

As an infantryman, I don't particularly like having the dismounted units steal our chance to perform the skirmish drill by the book that we practice at our company and battalion drills.  But it's easier to accept if the dismounted units would  adhere to some recognizable and self-protecting protocol.

So, my question wasn't to bait, but to find out if there is an accepted dismounted skirmish drill procedure from a period drill manual(or even from a modern reenactor manual as the Major referred to).  It seems the answer is somewhere in between yes and no.

Phil McBride
The Alamo Rifles

Sorry Phil.  The way you asked the question, I assumed that you already knew the answer.  

You are probably right about being at some of the same events.  It is silly to watch a line of dismounted cav retired all at once.  It would be silly to watch a line of mounted cav retire all at once too if being pressed.  Both can be covered by following the manual.  Ones and threes hold the line while the twos and fours retire and reload.  Next the odds retired while the evens hold the line.  It is a simple leap frog back so that the line is always covered.  It is done both mounted and dismounted.  As I stated in the earlier post, the drill is the same whether you are mounted or dismounted.

I agree with you that the infantry should be given the chance to skirmish.  The dismounted cav should go with the mounted cav when they dismount to fight.  Just my thoughts on it.

Phill
Here is a view of the page in the book I told you about before.  It is a page devoted to Skirmishing dismounted.

Terry  

--Last edited by Major on 2008-02-10 19:37:55 --

Terry,

Just a reminder, we do ask for first and last names in signature lines. Thanks  

Also to all, this thread has definitely made a turn for the better, keep up the great discussion on the tactics and references.

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TheBaldYankee wrote : I like the idea of putting the Dismounts and the Berdans as flank support, but what say do I have.  I guess I'll have to bring this up to the higher ups with the Army of the Ohio,...next time I find myself chatting with them.

While not an official of the AotO, I'm chairman and a sergeant in a member unit.  The AotO has no cavalry member units, so there's no direct interaction in the use of such units.

We do commonly send out skirmishers from within the infantry, even if there are sharpshooters and/or cavalry present doing the same thing, and often as they retire from an advanced position from intitial contact.

At Corinth 2005, serving with the Western Brigade, we were sent out on the skirmish line in support of mounted (I can't recall if there were dismounted) cavalry, who retreated back through our line after a time. (It's amazing how large a horse can grow as it passes close to you!)

Often times, our main problem with sharpshooters/dismounted cavalry is a matter of small numbers:  too few to put into line as a separate company, and they'd rather not be incorporated into a line infantry unit.  So they end up being placed on the flanks or out ahead as intial skirmishers.

As for RJ's point, the problem with not understanding bugle calls is not limited to skirmishers; there's a whoooooooole lot of reenactors, including way too many officers, who just do not know the calls well enough, if at all, to properly respond to them.  That's one of the reasons I've spent the last two years working to learn them, including coming up with my own "jingles" to make them easier to remember.  It served us well at Perryville 2006 during the "General's Time" competition, where we won the Drill by the Bugle competition with an ad hoc company from at least three different organizations.  At Outpost III, considered by some to be a high-level event, some of the men in my company were amazed that someone could identify most of the calls heard, even at distance, including from the Reb camp.  That's not so much about about how wonderful my skills are, but it speaks volumes about the unfortunate lack of knowledge of the calls by veteran reenactors at even the better events.

When incorporating dismounted cavalry into an existing infantry line company, commanders must be aware of the potential problems presented by the shortness of the cavalry weapons.  Dismounted would best be placed in front row.  Unfortunately, it has been our experience that placement can also step on toes.  Putting them in the second row would flirt with safety issues.

Added to the differences in weapons length is the breech loader/lever action vs. muzzle loader time between shots.  Loading time differences can be more easily accommodated than weapons length, but it is something else about which the knowledge commander needs to be aware.  Employ the fast firing weapons where they will do the most good and, of course, the same can be said for the heavier caliber infantry weapons.    

Even though they are similar, there are enough dissimilarity between infantry and cavalry commands to add confusion.  A single such example is that horse is not going to “about face.”  The dismounted cavalry will have typically been trained using the same commands as the mounted contingent.

Instead of perpetuating needless rivalry/antagonism between infantry and cavalry, a tactically and technically competent commander will employ each in such a manner to bring their distinct advantages to bear on the situation.