Quote :

Bill wrote :   RJ, See my earlier post. There were two difinitions of dismounted cavalry. Those without horses and those with horses someplace else. Those units without horses were normally used as infantry. The dismounted cavalry, who had been issued standard infantry weapons most likely fought like any other infantry unit. Those units who had been issued carbines most likely fought in a single rank. Given the increased rate of fire from a breach loader, that makes sense. BTW, why do you always sound like you are mad at the world?

You've been asked to provide ANY evidence that dismounted Cavalry fought as Infantry. Not Cavalry units in name only (like many from Texas), nor Mounted INfantry (Wilder's Brigade, 9th IL on Mules, etc.). Battle, unit, time of day. Not dismounted Infantry, but say the 4th VA Cavalry with Enfield's and Shotguns, dismounted. My Great Great Great Uncle Charles Converse was mortally wounded at the Crater while fighting in a horseless cavalry unit (27th NY Cavalry) brigaded in the Provisional Brigade (2 horseless cavalry regiments, 2 cannon less artillery regiments). The 27th NY Cavalry was armed with Smith Carbines, not rifles. Fought in a Single Rank dismounted (that's Poinsett's tactics). That's not infantry.

why am I so PO'd? Because he died fighting as a dismounted cavalry bugler whilst fighting using Cavalry Tactics and people like yourself insist that he fought as infantry.

Let me know when the pony boys learned how to fight in two ranks with a light touch of the elbow.....13" between ranks....

didn't happen with Buford's boys.....the Michigan Brigade....Brice's Cross Roads, Selma, Battle of Westport, Marais des Cygnes.  Single rank, dismounted, as cavalry, not infantry.

Quote :

Phil McBride wrote : In Texas we see a lot of dismounted cavalry fighting on both sides. While being in full agreement that many, maybe even half, of the dismounted guys have awful impressions, it's true the other half usually try to get it right. But I do often wonder where dismounted cavalry learn their single-rank skirmish drill. So, to Major and RJ,  what drill manual do you use to teach and learn "how" to skirmish as dismounted troopers? I never see them deploying in groups of four men as we do as skirmishing infantry. I don't see them pairing up and working together so one is always loaded. I don't see them leap-frogging when advancing or retiring. I don't see them rallying on the reserve. Heck, I don't see a reserve.  Do the cavalry drill manuals include how to engage as a dismounted fighting cavalryman? Phil McBride The Alamo Rifles

Hi Phil! Unlike the others I don't see this as baiting, I think you are asking a legitimate question.

1. Many Texas Cavalry units were Cavalry in name only....they fought dismounted, had no horses, and were trained as infantry, fought like infantry.

2. Many Yahoo Farb Reenactors carry multiple pistols, breach loaders, repeaters, and try to become Cage, or Kirby in Combat! and kill all the Yankees. This is the bad side of dismounted Cavalry. The KEY: Ban revolvers for dismounted troops of any kind (artillery, cavalry, officer's, and buglers). Pancho Villa and his band of Jay Hawkers, Outlaw Josie Wales, et al tend to not come back to the event. YEA!

3. Why no dismounted skirmish drill/evolutions like the Infantry> This is the easy one.....

A) cavalry is already in 4's from the get go....1,2,3 dismount to fight on foot, pass their reins to the mounted #4, and attach a link strap from their horses halter D ring to the BIT ring of the next horse (we use the D Ring on the adjacent horse in reenacting, less horse tongues getting RIPPED!). So they don't need to march out a 100 yards space themselves out at 25+ yard intervals in groups of 4....they simply start marching out and start taking intervals as the march out. The NCO's guide them out.
B) File partners and loading.....and alternating ranks while marching and firing. Not Needed! Breach loaders can easily fire 5 aimed shots per minute.....while pausing on the advance. So BOTH file partners are considered loaded at all times....you simply advance from tree to tree and keep more or less on line. when the halt is sounded (that would be on the bugle) you take a knee or lie down depending on available cover.

C) Much is made out of no specific dismounted tactics in Cooke's Manual (single rank mounted, single rank dismounted).....short shrift being made about fighting dismounted in Poinsett's (double rank Mounted, single Rank Dismounted)....but the boy's in the field didn't seem to have much trouble with this with proper leadership. Late war they made this stuff up once they got the Spencer's in droves. They didn't train in how to storm light field fortifications at Selma....but dismounted cavalry successfully frontally assaulted infantry in breastworks and routed them out. Their isn't too much about how to fight dismounted, but Buford's boys did fine on McPherson's Ridge.....5th Michigan (with Spencer RIFLES) did fine at Rummel Farm.... US Regulars did POORLY in the fields on July 3rd at Gettysburg....and Custer's Michigan boys did badly at Trevillian's on the 2nd day.

4. Rally on the Reserve....and all of the rally commands for infantry....means FORM SQUARE (ok so it's back to back for 4's and an oval for a section or  platoon). When dismounted cavalry retreats Fighting....then they leapfrog (cover each other's backs)....the bugle signal is the first 12 notes of the Retreat (you know that one, it's used to Lower the Flag in Boy Scouts). The NCO's shout out the firing command's, and their raised carbine set's the new line....breachloaders means quick reloading, and a rapid jog out of harms way even whilst throwing out the lead!

And the RALLY call (or Rally on the Chief) for Cavalry is a hide curdling tongue-ing exercise for advance trumpeters.....we use it often, drill on it regularly, and can carry this out mounted, dismounted, day, or night (like at Perryville 2006)..... You hear your unit's call, you hear the Rally, and you turn around and RUN or Lope back to your Captain.....  AWESOME sight.

5. Cavalry's reserve would be MOUNTED.....you don't hold 25% of a unit out of the line (holding the horses) and then have another reserve on top of that for any given company/Squadron. Then you end up with no one on the line. So if you dismount a Squadron per Battalion (three battalions of 4 companies each per regiment)....then the other squadron is OUT OF SIGHT mounted. You don't want the enemy flinging 3" ordnance rifle bolts into a mounted formation now.....

In mainstream reenacting terms, the mounted reserve is in the same place that the infantry marched in from (NowheresVille).

6. I think that some (OK a LOT) of the appeal for dismounted cavalry is both the firepower AND the lack of manual's/fighting tactics spelled out in a book. It's more loosey goosey (skirmishing in extended order is the norm, not the exception) You can wing it more, a la carte try something new.....avante garde make something up. And that's where we get in trouble. If your read about how dismounted cavalry fought against each other, against infantry (BrinkerHoff Ridge on July 2nd, Gettysburg PA), against mounted Cavalry.....and about how they worked with other units (in a regiment Squadrons would dismount, leaving mounted squadrons in reserve....in a Brigade Regiments would dismount, leaving the 'sabre' regiments mounted)....then you can get a fair understanding that dismounted cavalry learned their tactics in the crucible of combat from leadership that was taught to think in a NonLinear fashion (this is CAVALRY after all, not the frickin ground pounders nor the Queens artillery). Sorry Bill, they did NOT fight like Infantry. Selma was one of those battles you can't explain out of a manual....more like the Swarmistes of the Franco Prussian War.....

But it's in the reining in of the outlaw josie wales element while still coming up with border line independent rushes and Audie Murphy assaults....it's that border line that defines how farby or how authentic dismounted cavalry portrayals are.....




and ALWAYS by the bugle.....fun.  

--Last edited by RJSamp on 2008-03-08 12:53:05 --

Quote :

RJSamp wrote :   why am I so PO'd? Because he died fighting as a dismounted cavalry bugler whilst fighting using Cavalry Tactics and people like yourself insist that he fought as infantry.

RJ,

Read the quote you highlighted. I very specifically said that unmounted cavalry (That term make more sense than "dismounted".)who were armed with cavalry weapons most likely fought in a single rank: just like dismounted cavalry. Unmounted cavalry who were issued infantry long arms, which means they were cavalry in name only; most likely fought using infantry drill. What doesn't make sense to you?  

Quote :

Bill wrote:Unmounted cavalry who were issued infantry long arms, which means they were cavalry in name only; most likely fought using infantry drill.

Bill:  I'll assume that by the above statement you're refering to units (several were from Texas that I know of) who were horseless pretty much from the get-go and, basically, never mounted. They were cavalry in name only.  However, in the CS service, the carbine was pretty much a luxury. With the poor CS supply system, the cavalry carbine was used, and, I'd say, preferred for it's ease of use mounted, but the 3 bander rifle-musket was well represented in many CS mounted cavalry units. Some CS units (34th Va. Cavalry comes to mind off-hand in their regimental history) had less than a handfull, much preferring the Enfield or Springfield musket. Morgan's men, and the 4th Kentucky Cavalry (History of Morgan's Cavalry & Kentucky Cavalier's in Dixie), were big fans of the 2 and 3 banded Enfield. They also fought dismounted quite a bit.

FWIW, the 3 bander is underrepresented by dismounted cavalry reenactors, at least here in the east.  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2008-03-08 18:25:32 --

FWIW:

To my knowledge, there were no mounted cavalry units, fighting afoot, that used a double rank battle line once the shooting started. Cooke's, Poinsett's, and Maury's Manuals all instructed in a single rank skirmish formation. However, in Poinsett's manual, when the troops were ordered to dismount to fight on foot, once the #4 man had the reins of his #1,2 & 3, the men doing the skirmishing fell in with a double rank line. This didn't last long, as the men advanced and fanned out into a single line formation to meet their threat. The intervals between men distinguished them from a basic infantry line, but, I believe there were intervals between infantry skirmishers as well. Could a cavalry dismounted skirmish line look like an infantry skirmish line to the enemy? Sure could.

One of the ways to tell the difference was to get close enough, or behind, to see the held horses, or some other distinguishing equipment, colors, or lack of infantry reserve.  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2008-03-08 18:29:39 --

Quote :

TheBaldYankee wrote : There's something I've been wondering about... I have never had the opportunity to be sent out as a skirmisher.  Most of the mainstream Ohio events there are groups of Berdan sharp shooters and Dismounted Cavalry present. Now I don't care what anyone wants to portray, and I'm not agrueing the authenticity of dismounted cavalry or berdans at every event. What I'd like to now is why they get sent out as skirmishers every time?  Can they be used in another way to make room for a normal infantry unit to be skirmishers?  Is it fiar they they get to go first just because they purchased a different uniform?

Anthony
If you want to do skirmishing and think that the Cavalry is doing it all the time then why not join a Cavalry unit?  Generally speaking there isn’t any rule in the hobby that says you can’t belong to more than one unit.  Why not seek out a dismounted Cavalry unit and join up so the next time out you can be one of the skirmishers?  
You already possess most of the gear you will need the only thing you may want to purchase is a carbine.  But for many situations this is not even necessary as lots of Cavalry units were issued muskets early in the war and many used sack coats instead of the flashy shell jacket.  
If you were at Zoar last summer then you saw us Dismounted Cavalry in action.

One of these days, I'd like to see some details about Crook's two brigades of dismounted (as in unmounted) cavalry on 5 and 6 April 1865. Chris Calkin's book and booklets touch on their actions a little bit, but not in enough detail.

Charles,

Enjoy!

http://books.google.com/books?id=K8REAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=crooks+cavlary+april+5th+1865&source=web&ots=JhsSiu1hbw&sig=zrFdazwIDRZ8L5h5uuNdmnHmUdU&hl=en

Grumpy,

I'll have to print out the references to the mule cavalry, and read them to Holly. She'll like that.

That piece references Crook's men being mounted at several points during the 5th and 6th of April. The great researchers of our time claim they were unmounted, as in having no equines at all, yet this little mention explains why they were able to move so fast from Holt's Corner (Brown's Store) down to Marshall's Cross Roads. Come to think of it, there is some land there that really needs bought up before it becomes the final crop. Sigh.

Quote :

MStuart wrote :   However, in the CS service, the carbine was pretty much a luxury. With the poor CS supply system, the cavalry carbine was used, and, I'd say, preferred for it's ease of use mounted, but the 3 bander rifle-musket was well represented in many CS mounted cavalry units. Some CS units (34th Va. Cavalry comes to mind off-hand in their regimental history) had less than a handfull, much preferring the Enfield or Springfield musket. FWIW, the 3 bander is underrepresented by dismounted cavalry reenactors, at least here in the east.

Mark,

I agree, Confederate mounted cavalry were armed with a hodge podge of weapons, Three Banders, Two Banders, shot guns, muzzle loading carbines, breach loading carbines, sling shots, and pea shooters. A few of them even had revolvers and sabers! From my limited reading, I don't get the feeling there was a lot of uniformity within units either.  

The Richmond Arsenal actually cut down captured rifle-muskets and I believe M-1842's, for cavalry use. It would make sense these guys would like the standard infantry weapons. If you are going to be stuck with a muzzle loader, you might as well be stuck with a weapon that could reach out and touch someone.

As an aside, ammunition resupply must have been a horror show!  

Quote :

Major wrote :   Anthony If you want to do skirmishing and think that the Cavalry is doing it all the time then why not join a Cavalry unit?  Generally speaking there isn’t any rule in the hobby that says you can’t belong to more than one unit.  Why not seek out a dismounted Cavalry unit and join up so the next time out you can be one of the skirmishers?   You already possess most of the gear you will need the only thing you may want to purchase is a carbine.  But for many situations this is not even necessary as lots of Cavalry units were issued muskets early in the war and many used sack coats instead of the flashy shell jacket.   If you were at Zoar last summer then you saw us Dismounted Cavalry in action.

Actually I thought about that.  Or at least falling in with a cavalry unit at an event.  Though I really don't have the money for a carbine, so my Springfield will have to do.  

I was at Zoar, but I couldn't really see you guys in action.  While you were fighting we were behind the tall grass waiting to be called up.  I could see the mounted guys and the artillery, but not much else.  I actually enjoy watching you guys out there. That's what makes me want to give it a try.

BTW, what unit are you with?

Anthony
I am with the 9th NYVC (dismounted) out of Western New York.  There were only two of us that went to Zoar so we fell in with the 17th PA.  We did Confederate on Saturday but went back to our normal Union impression on Sunday.  We were the ones that had all the Spencer carbines.  If you want to fall in with us at one of the events we do locally you are welcome to do so.  We might even be able to find a extra carbine for you to use.
Terry  

--Last edited by Major on 2008-03-13 08:11:32 --

I have been throw out as a skirmisher a number of times.

Even had to scout out a village a couple of times and report back to the main force.

I think that at most events the cavalry and sharpshooters are thrown out as skirmishers because there are so few of them and they don't fit into the battle line.

Where as with infantry while there are more of us there are never enough so a Battalion/Company commander is loath to dispatch a sizeable body of troops to perform that function.

What I REALLY don't understand is why during tacticals company commanders don't throw out some pickets.  Yes the brigade commanding officer has thrown out someone (usually the cavalry) and they can skirmish in front of 1/10 of the line of advance.  The other 90% is uncovered and usually taken by surprise.

A company commander can afford to throw out three privates and an NCO to cover his front as skirmishers.  And certainly a battalion can afford to throw out a dozen or so men to cover its front and flank.

So why don't THOSE officers do it?

J.E.B. Stuart's, book, "Bold Dragoon" mentions the plight of supplying ammo for a variety of weapons. It also sites most weapons were of muzzle loading single shot variety. Troops who lost there mounts were organized in regiments as foot soldiers due to the scarcity of mounts for troopers.

Andy Siganuk