Let me start by putting this information out there:

From Hardees 1855:
73. At the command REST, the soldier is no longer required to preserve immobility, or to remain in his place. If the instructor wishes merely to relieve the attention of the recruit, he commands, "in place-REST"; the soldier is then not required to preserve his immobility, but he always keeps one of his feet in its place.

From Gilhams 1860:
At the command REST, the soldier is no longer required to preserve immobility, or to remain in his place. If the instructor wishes merely to relieve the attention of the soldier, he commands, in place - REST; the soldier is then only required to keep one of his feet in place; if he wishes to move that foot, the other is first brought up to its proper position.

From Casey's 1862:
37. The instructor, wishing to rest the men, without deranging the alignment, will first cause arms to be supported, or ordered, and then command:
In place-- REST.
38. At this command, the men will no longer be constrained to preserve silence or steadiness of position; but they will always keep one or other heel on the alignment.

In each of the above example the position of the men are left to their own desire with the exception they must maintain one heel on the alignment.

So is the issue people have with the "reenactors in place" rest the way it is taught as the only proper position or with the stance itself?  

In light of the manuals, the position of stepping 1 foot back off the line and leaning the rifle back and folding your hands is ok.  But it is NOT the only proper position.

When I first started in the hobby, I know I was taught that it was the proper position, but after seeing discussions about it and reading the manuals myself, I realized that it is not a specified position like say "Order Arms".  When running a fresh fish drill or our own unit COI, we try to dispel the myth of the "in-place rest" position.

Another example of reenactorisms popping up in drill is with wheeling, especially wheeling from the march.  
The standard reenactor motto for these manuever is "touch/lean in - look out", regardless of whether the wheel is from the halt or from the march.  If you read paragraph 212 of Gilhams and paragraphs 384 and 385 of 1855 Hardees, both of which address wheeling from a halted position, you will find that this saying indeed accurately describes the procedure. However, this procedure changes for a wheel while on the march. I call your attention to paragraphes 213 of Gilham's

Quote :

At the command march, the wheel will be executed in the same manner as from a halt, except that the touch of the elbow will remain towards the left or marching flank, instead of the side of the actual pivot; that the pivot-man, instead of merely turning in his place, will conform himself to the movement of the marching flank, feel lightly the elbow of the next man, take steps of full nine inches, and thus gain ground forward so as to clear the point of the wheel.

and 396 of Hardees

Quote :

396. At the second command, the wheel will be executed in the same manner as from a halt, except that the touch of the elbow will remain towards the marching flank (or side of the guide) instead of the side of the actual pivot; that the pivot man, instead of merely turning in his place, will conform himself to the movement of the marching flank feel lightly the elbow of the next man,

In other words, where "look out, touch/lean in" is an appropriate reenactor motto for wheeling from the halt, it is totally inappropriate for wheeling from the march as both manuals specifically state that the touch is exactly opposite that of the wheel from the halt.

I know that some units use the same approach for touching and looking during both wheels because they feel that it will confuse their fresh fish, but my experience in my old unit is that it does not take long for troops to learn the difference, especially if the NCOs make it a point to verbally remind them the first few times the maneuver is done at an event.  

--Last edited by tom on 2007-01-22 17:48:11 --

Tom

I never thought about that.. I will have to remember this when we practice wheels.  

Heck, when in the rear rank, I've been known to sit or even lie down during In-Place Rest.  

Some commanders are not amused... "But, Captain, I am following your orders to the letter!"

I sit whenever I can. These 50+ legs I rest them when I can.  As long as I stay on the line I feel that I am complying with the order as so nicely stated in a previous post.  Our unit uses Casey's also.  And Yes I have been given dirty looks by batt. commanders, but not by our unit commander.  Guess some people need to review their manuals occasionally, just like the rest of us.  In self defence I have been carrying a copy of Casey's with me.
I am finding that there are (quite) a few officers who claim to know everything actually know very little about the rules and regs.   How many officers carry a set of regs with them?

I almost forgot-- Casey's Infantry tacs also states the same as Hardys:
409. At the second command the wheel will be executed in the same manner as from a halt, except that the touch of the elbow will remain toward the marching flank(or side of the guide) instead of the actual pivot.

Quote :

So is the issue people have with the "reenactors in place" rest the way it is taught as the only proper position or with the stance itself?

You've answered your own question.  In-place rest is a pet peeve of mine.  It made it to my list of top ten reenactorisms.  Follow this link for my article : http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/goofiness.htm

The method drummed into fresh fish is a correct method of remaining in place, but not the correct method.  When everyone in the company or battalion stands in that nonformal position, it becomes a formal position.  There's the problem.  Some twit made an informal method into a formal one.  Per the manuals, any method of remaining in place with either foot on the line is correct.  This includes sitting or laying.  It also includes leaving your right foot on the line and pivoting to the rear to talk to your pards.  

Any battalion commander in a formal parade who issues the command of in-place rest when he means parade rest is asking for trouble.  The wags will teach him a lesson in the finer points of the drill manuals.  

Let's talk about the command of rest.  It does not mean to break ranks as 99% of the reenacting community will tell you.  It means that you stay in your spot, but you don't have to keep one foot or the other on the line.  Sitting, standing, laying or whatever is fair game, but you must remain in the general area of your spot in line.  To me, this means no farther than one's wingspan, not the nearest shaddy tree.  

If an officer wants you to go to the shaddy tree, the order is to break ranks.  Before said command can be given, the line of battle needs to be marked so that the ranks can be reformed quickly and efficiently.  Stacking arms is the method of marking that line.  

In place rest is one of those positions that has not changed in over a century. Even in my High School ROTC days we knew the difference between Parade Rest, Stand at Ease, and In Place Rest. In place rest, keep your left heel planted and do whatever else you please, talk to your buddy, chew a stick of gum (just make sure it is gone and not on my parade ground when I call you back to attention , check your uniform to make sure it is squared away, anything; just don't move the left foot.

Quote :

In place rest, keep your left heel planted and do whatever else you please, talk to your buddy, chew a stick of gum (just make sure it is gone and not on my parade ground when I call you back to attention, check your uniform to make sure it is squared away, anything; just don't move the left foot.

As is noted in the original posting, the text from the big three manuals makes it clear that either heel or the other must remain on the line.  Accordingly, removal of the left heel from the line is okay so long as the right heel remains or replaces it.  

Silas,

Sorry about that, I was referring to the curent in place rest used in the FM22-5 in that particular post. In essence it is still the same though that you can do pretty much anything you please as long as you don't leave your spot. Just reinforcing that it IS NOT a formal position such as the modern stand at ease or either the modern or Civil War era parade rest. Of course I still blew it because in the FM22-5 it's the RIGHT foot that stays put, typing getting ahead of the old brain again  

--Last edited by toptimlrd on 2007-08-13 20:31:36 --

The troops in my company are taught the correct way of in place rest, which means, to quote Tom Pritchett, "you can do the hokey pokey if you want". I read Silas' reenactorisms page a couple of years ago, and it made me question every command I'd ever been taught.That has made me a better NCO, and my thanks for that. No matter how hardcore or how farby a reenactor is, there is no excuse for not doing your homework and learning the correct commands/positions if one holds rank.

We have a unit we work with sometimes whose long term, old timer 1st Sgt. passed away last year. He had been so narrow minded/set in his ways that these boys had never even heard of Secure Arms and were not interested when I made an attempt to help them learn and use the position correctly. Hardee's manual might as well have been the Koran for all these guys cared.  :/

Sgt. Gregg Hensley
22nd NC, Co. K

Gregg, at least you weren't using Heitmann's Simplified Hardee's. That reenactor generated manual is the root cause of most of the drill reenactorisms in the hobby (there was once a great article going through that whole book point-by-point demonstrating this not so funny situation), and would you believe that piece of trash is still being sold?  I tell people to burn it.  

--Last edited by Charles Heath on 2007-08-14 10:08:11 --

Heitman's is a definite problem, but I think FM22-5 is a source of many problems, too.  Too many modern soldiers applying modern methods - and teaching them to fresh fish - when they should be using period ones.  Two examples are About Face and By File Right (Left).

When facing to the rear, you're not using the period method if you keep your left foot to the front and put the toes of your right foot behind you before spinning to the rear.  We've all done it.  Some still do.  The best manual to view the proper method is from Baxter.  Follow this link : http://www.secondwi.com/baxterdrill/lesson_2.htm  Lots of illustrations in this scanned version.  

You'll notice that the McClellan-esque soldier doesn't have his right heel way up in the air with the front of the toes planted behind, and to the left of, the left heel.  If you're not entirely certain what I mean, step away from your computer, and commence the first movement of facing to the rear as you've been taught to do.  Look at your feet.  Then, look at the illustration at the bottom of the provided link.  He's doing it right.  Hopefully, you are, too.

When the four file partners are moving by file right (left), the modern guy is going to do that sharp, individual turn to the new direction.  Instead, the file partners should be performing a wheel AT THE SPEED OF THE OUTSIDE MAN while the inner three take shorter steps to compensate.  

Throw the modern guy with three who are wheeling.  You see clean movement, then one of them does a suddern jerk and jumps ahead of the other three.  All cohesion is lost.

Mark,

I agree with the FM 22-5 infusion. Muscle memory in terms of fingers is another "learn to forget" moment.

At a COI, a washtub of the appropriate diameter helps round off that 90 degree crispness. Lime and a piece of string to make an arc works well, too. For folks who take the time to enjoy a little prep work, the School of the Soldier part of any of the manuals can be a lot of fun.

On the subject of facings. Anyone who has ever had a weekend drilling on sharp rocks or other coarse pavement instantly realizes why the boys of '61-'65 used the heel rather than ball of their feet for about face. It's easier to replace heels than constantly half sole shoes.

Few groups do much with platoon drill, but it is one of the more enjoyable aspects of having a large enough company to get out and do something productive. I'm hoping the current trend of getting away from mini-battalions and micro-brigades will continue.

Fellas,

separating the modern drill and ceremony from the period was the hardest thing I had to learn.  I retired in 2005 after 21 year Army career and I still make the mistake that Silas speaks of.  It is so natural for me to do crisp turns, do modern about faces, etc.  It's one tough mental challenge for this vet, but I am getting better!  

Oh boy I opened a can of worms didn't I. I agree I took a while to deprogram from FM22-5 especially since I was on a competitve drill team throughout high school and in the Brigade Band in college. I hope I wasn't misinterpreted saying that the FM22-5 was a source for era drill I was only stating that in place rest had only minor changes from 1861 to today. It's tough enough to remember which manual we are following at any given event (Gillams, Caseys, Hardees, etc)  

--Last edited by toptimlrd on 2007-08-14 19:17:54 --

Quote :

Ken Cornett wrote : Fellas, I retired in 2005 after 21 year Army career and I still make the mistake that Silas speaks of.  It is so natural for me to do crisp turns, do modern about faces, etc.

Ken,

I did 24 years and have the exact same problem. Some of the Civil War movements just feel totally unnatural to me.  

Oh no Robert, the FM22-5 is definitely a modern pub.  It just real easy for us military folks to get it confused.  I would think a non-military reenactor has a better chance of learning the period stuff.  Here's a link to the for the FM22-5 for all those wondering what it is:

www.uwyo.edu/armyrotc/cadetresources/infolibrary/fm225/toc.pdf

Quote :

I would think a non-military reenactor has a better chance of learning the period stuff.

I completely agree.  Folks like me don't have years of unlearning to perform.  

I was thinking today about another modern-ism : weather arms.  Heard a company commander at a recent event near me command that.

I agree also. Most of the men in my unit didn't have military service, so retraining, if you will, is a non issue for us. I've seen a company commander with Iraq war service struggle to separate the old/modern commands in his mind before giving them to his troops. I can easily see the difficulty.

What the heck is "weather arms"? I've heard some homemade commands before, but that's a new one on me.