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Gregg Hensley wrote : What the heck is "weather arms"?

Gregg,

Trust me, that command didn't come from FM 22-5.  

Weather Arms is when you invert your weapon to keep the rain from going down the barrel.  They mean Secure Arms.

Must be the rainy Pacific Nor'west version of the modern manual.  I have heard several people use that command here.  It's sufficiently common command that people know what to do.  (Unfortunately, you'll see them lean their muskets to the rear and place their left hands upon their right shoulders.  Doh!)  I'll secure my arms, but you'll see me shaking my head and muttering about my choice to fall in with this company or battalion for a day/weekend.  

In some threads you'll read about the six or ten degrees of authenticity.  No matter where you fall on someone's arbitrary spectrum of definitions, there's no reason why you cannot crack the spine of a manual and do what the instructors intended you to do.  The manuals transcend the levels of authenticity.

The manuals are one of the few examples where someone said, "this is how you do it, son."  If you know your drill, you possess the tools to fall in with any group in America.

Silas, it couldn't be said any better than that.  Now, if everyone would just do it.

In a CW version of this, an account exists of the army fellows listening to the naval commands given in the vicinity of Sailor's Creek (how ironic) on April 6, 1865. As an aside, it makes a man wonder what manual the battalion of clerks happend to be using, too.

Hardee's Revised or Gilham.  I recall reading a report that in the Fall of '64, there were several battalions of clerks consolidated into a "brigade" which included the remnants of Bushrod Johnson's old Tennessee Brigade.  

The interesting thing from the report by an inspector general was that the men were enjoined from placing their sinks to the rear.  They were instructed to place the sinks between the lines.  Imagine you're a yankee running for the fortification to your front.  Because the gray guys aren't very nice hosts, you leap for a hole in an effort to keep from being drilled by a minie ball.  Into what do you land?  A filthy sink!  Talk about demoralizing.

There are some interesting storylines in the official records.

Being an astute hillbilly from NC (we're rare, but exist) I made the assumption that weather arms was supposed to be secure arms. Still, being able to interpret the wrong command doesn't excuse the use of it in the first place. I think you and I in the ranks together would make for a nasty event for the unlearned in charge man. The guys in my outfit know when I get that "look" and start grumbling, we'll be looking at the manual later so that they know the correct command.

Silas, your post was very well written, and if you don't mind, I'll pass it along to some folks(it may fall on deaf ears, but I will have tried). There is no excuse for not doing it right.

Gregg Hensley
22nd NC, Co. K

"That look."  

At a local event, a new guy in my old company said I'd make a great basis for a new drinking game.  Every time I shook my head at some strange practice, someone in the company would have to take a drink.  Sure fire way to get entire company intoxicated by noon.

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Gregg Hensley wrote : Being an astute hillbilly from NC (we're rare, but exist) I made the assumption that weather arms was supposed to be secure arms. Still, being able to interpret the wrong command doesn't excuse the use of it in the first place. I think you and I in the ranks together would make for a nasty event for the unlearned in charge man. The guys in my outfit know when I get that "look" and start grumbling, we'll be looking at the manual later so that they know the correct command. Silas, your post was very well written, and if you don't mind, I'll pass it along to some folks(it may fall on deaf ears, but I will have tried). There is no excuse for not doing it right. Gregg Hensley 22nd NC, Co. K

Gregg

Sometimes I keep a copy of Hardee's in my knapsack for just such a reason.  If we mix a company with some other smaller messes, we use it to get on the same page if that is the manual we are using.

Also we did a company drill one year where we started from scratch. Position of the soldier and as I read the motions in the manual the boys performed them so that we could learn to do it right.

I don't have any formal military training so I am not having to unlearn modern speak.  We did have a capt at one time who did Rev War also, so we had to sometimes translate from those commands to our period.

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silas wrote : You've answered your own question.  In-place rest is a pet peeve of mine.  It made it to my list of top ten reenactorisms.  Follow this link for my article : http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/goofiness.htm The method drummed into fresh fish is a correct method of remaining in place, but not the correct method.  When everyone in the company or battalion stands in that nonformal position, it becomes a formal position.  There's the problem.  Some twit made an informal method into a formal one.  Per the manuals, any method of remaining in place with either foot on the line is correct.  This includes sitting or laying.  It also includes leaving your right foot on the line and pivoting to the rear to talk to your pards.   Any battalion commander in a formal parade who issues the command of in-place rest when he means parade rest is asking for trouble.  The wags will teach him a lesson in the finer points of the drill manuals.   Let's talk about the command of rest.  It does not mean to break ranks as 99% of the reenacting community will tell you.  It means that you stay in your spot, but you don't have to keep one foot or the other on the line.  Sitting, standing, laying or whatever is fair game, but you must remain in the general area of your spot in line.  To me, this means no farther than one's wingspan, not the nearest shaddy tree.   If an officer wants you to go to the shaddy tree, the order is to break ranks.  Before said command can be given, the line of battle needs to be marked so that the ranks can be reformed quickly and efficiently.  Stacking arms is the method of marking that line.

Silas

Thanks for the well written answer.  When I first started in this hobby, I was taught the position was the correct for IPR.  But when I became an NCO, and looked through a couple of the drill manuals, I realized that it wasn't the only position.  So now when we drill we make sure that we explain the difference between IPR, Rest, Break Ranks and Parade Rest.

"Let's talk about the command of rest.  It does not mean to break ranks as 99% of the reenacting community will tell you.  It means that you stay in your spot, but you don't have to keep one foot or the other on the line.  Sitting, standing, laying or whatever is fair game, but you must remain in the general area of your spot in line.  To me, this means no farther than one's wingspan, not the nearest shaddy tree.  "

Ummm, Silas, which manual are you taking this from?

REST means you no longer have to keep alignment, no longer have to maintain silence, no longer are immobile. You can't leave the general vicinity....but plenty of American Civil War soldier's started a fire and made coffee at the command REST.

When you march for 50 minutes and take a break for 10 minutes, the command is Battalion, Halt! Rest. The men headed for shade got water, made coffee, wrote letters, etc. and they most definitely didn't stay within 'wingspan' of where they halted at.

Here is SCOTT's REST

1.       Order—ARMS. 2. REST.



228.    At this command, the soldier will only be required not to move his left foot, nor to displace the heel of his firelock.

229.    To resume the position of steadiness with ordered arms, the Instruc­t will command,

>> Note that the firelock is supposed to stay in place.....making it fairly difficult to impossible to lie down.

Hardee's, Casey's, Gilham's, US I & RT added the In Place Rest commands to supplant Scott's Rest.....and added a new 'Rest' command.

Here's US I & RT REST:
Title: U.S. infantry tactics.: for the instruction, exercise, and manœuvres of the United States infantry, including infantry of the line, light infantry, and riflemen./ Prepared under the direction of the War department, and authorized and adopted by the secretary of war, May 1, 1861.
page 96, School of the Soldier.
REST
40. At which command, the men will not be re-quired to preserve immobility, or to remain in their places.
41. The instructor may, also, when he shall judge proper, cause arms to be stacked, which will be executed as prescribed, school of the soldier.

The School of the Battalion has the 1. Stack-Arms. 2. Break ranks. 3. March. (and sound the attention to reform). also Schoold of the Company has 1. Stack-Arms. 2. Break ranks. 3. March.

During Actual practice... REST was often the command. and the practice was to get off of your feet and take a break, a rest stop. The Bugle call was LIE DOWN. So that Halt and LIE DOWN meant to leave your position and take a Rest.

Major Blackburn, 5th AL Bttn, Rodes Division, sounded the halt (that would be the Major himself sounding the callS) on June 30th 1863 near a farm house with a flock of chickens running around the yard. he yelled out 2 minutes rest and then sounded the Disperse. after the halt he sounded the Attention (to fall in). and then the Forward.....off they went without the chickens.

I think you need to amend your statement that leaving ranks by commanding REST is wrong. Halt, Fix Bayonets, Stack Arms, Break Ranks, March I will buy. Halt, Rest. Without first stacking arms is perfectly satisfactory. We also may be dealing with a Reality versus Manual issue. There are certainly 10's of thousands of times when Colonels or Brigadier's on both sides yelled out Rest and the men left the ranks (or moved more than your 'wingspan' away interpretation).

Halt. Rest. lie down in the shade, make some coffe, take a load off of your feet......

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RJSamp wrote : "Let's talk about the command of rest.   During Actual practice... REST was often the command. and the practice was to get off of your feet and take a break, a rest stop. The Bugle call was LIE DOWN. So that Halt and LIE DOWN meant to leave your position and take a Rest.

Silas, I am not worthy, but I will take this one. There is no way a general at the head of a column, somewhere between a quarter and a half mile long, is going to control the movements of an individual private in the ranks, bugle or no bugle. That private is going to wait for orders from his company commander. I can truly believe those orders got sloppy as hell as the War wore on, but just because a senior officer yelled rest, is no reason to believe that's what the individual soldier was told.

Then you simply have to go to the diaries of the day and read about what the Private was 'told' or did a mile away from a General and his bugler. Start with the Colonel and his bugler at the regimental level and their response to the General 'over yonder'.

Suggest that your research begin with the "Memoirs of a Dutch Mudsill" by John Henry Otto. You could also reread what Shorty and Company Q of the 200th Indiana went through. John Henry Otto could tell the sound of Brigadier General Starkweather's bugle versus other buglers, including his Regimental bugle. If the command is clearly heard (i.e. the bugle call) there is no need to echo the command, even by Captains. Even in a column 3 miles long with stragglers from 3 divisions intermingled and the men bone weary from 18 miles covered and 6 more still to go.

Company commanders didn't tell the men to get out of the straw when Reveille was sounded. And they didn't all shout out a bunch of voice commands to have their men get back down in the grass after 8 - 12 hours of marching and choking on dust.

The Command REST (the bugle call Lie Down when on a route march) means you can lie down and make coffee under a nearby tree, fence line, or wash your face in a creek. You didn't Stack Arms and Break Ranks when you set up a camp, or took a 10 minute break on a 10 hour march. You heard the Halt on the Bugle, you stopped. You heard Lie Down on the bugle, you Rested.

If your Captain was still with your company and hadn't straggled or wasn't on a hospital wagon then he might yell out something non military like time to take a break.....or he might be an Academy snot that went by the book.

Either way, REST does not mean stay within wingspan of your position in formation. and it does mean you can move around a bit. and it isn't an incorrect reenactorism.

Bill this has nothing to do with being worthy. We simply have to read what they did.....

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RJSamp wrote : Bill this has nothing to do with being worthy. We simply have to read what they did.....

RJ,

I would be the last person to argue the fine points of drill with anyone. I know just enough to get by, but I do know the "Army". At the end of a march, I find it difficult to believe that any First Sergeant, who was worth his salt, was going to allow his men to excape his clutches before calling the roll to find out who fell out during the march. I'm sure there were lots of exceptions, like the 6th. Corp's march to Gettysburg, where people fell where they were standing when the halt was called. But I think that was the exception, not the rule.

Remember, a First Sergeant was expected to memorize the the names of the men in his company. It wouldn't take long to call the roll.    

"Remember, a First Sergeant was expected to memorize the the names of the men in his company. It wouldn't take long to call the roll."

If I'm correct, the Orderly Sergeant was required to call the roll a minimum of 4 times per day and at every halt on the march(I'm sure there were exceptions and units who demanded less). That being the case, it wouldn't take long to memorise the names on the roll.    

Can you imagine all of the "passes" the 5th and 6th Corps line officers would have had to write on that march to Gettysburg? I can't fathom it. I'll bet it never happened.

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lhsnj wrote : Let me start by putting this information out there: From Hardees 1855: 73. At the command REST, the soldier is no longer required to preserve immobility, or to remain in his place. If the instructor wishes merely to relieve the attention of the recruit, he commands, "in place-REST"; the soldier is then not required to preserve his immobility, but he always keeps one of his feet in its place. From Gilhams 1860: At the command REST, the soldier is no longer required to preserve immobility, or to remain in his place. If the instructor wishes merely to relieve the attention of the soldier, he commands, in place - REST; the soldier is then only required to keep one of his feet in place; if he wishes to move that foot, the other is first brought up to its proper position. From Casey's 1862: 37. The instructor, wishing to rest the men, without deranging the alignment, will first cause arms to be supported, or ordered, and then command: In place-- REST. 38. At this command, the men will no longer be constrained to preserve silence or steadiness of position; but they will always keep one or other heel on the alignment. In each of the above example the position of the men are left to their own desire with the exception they must maintain one heel on the alignment. So is the issue people have with the "reenactors in place" rest the way it is taught as the only proper position or with the stance itself?   In light of the manuals, the position of stepping 1 foot back off the line and leaning the rifle back and folding your hands is ok.  But it is NOT the only proper position. When I first started in the hobby, I know I was taught that it was the proper position, but after seeing discussions about it and reading the manuals myself, I realized that it is not a specified position like say "Order Arms".  When running a fresh fish drill or our own unit COI, we try to dispel the myth of the "in-place rest" position.

Is it a reenactorism?  Admittedly there is no "prescribed" stance but are we really all that far off?

Let's just look at this from an actual movement standpoint for a moment.

The 'position' immediately prior to "in place rest" is order arms (if in rank with weapons).  So when given the command "in place rest" you are allowed to move either the left or right foot out of position.

There are however complications, you are in two ranks with thirteen inch intervals.  Just how much freedom of movement do you really have?

Also the regs don't say "heel on line"  They say "in position" a very specific place in "order arms".  Basically this allows for only one of four movements:

Right foot back one step
Right foot forward one step
Left foot back one step
Left foot forward one step

You don't have the abilty to pivot or turn to face the man next to you or turn to face the man behind you.

Your actual movements are also limited by what the man in front or behind you does.

Furthermore since you are in ranks you're very limited as to what you can do with your long arm.

So yes teaching that there is only one "correct" position is a failure by our drill instructors.

But in reality, assuming a 100 man company in ranks, how many different motions with your feet do you think would actual work, enmass in that limited a space?

The one hand over the other is a completely different matter.

Speaking of the General a Mile away on a route step march having his bugler sound the Halt, and Lie Down to get his men to rest off of the road for a 10 minute break. And trying to determine exactly what the Captain or First Sergeant of a company ordered the men to do......

This from a 2nd US Infantry Regular in May 1862 on campaign in Virginia marching with the V Corps. We all 'know' how BY THE BOOK the Regulars were, especially when compared to the 'undisciplined' volunteers and conscrïpts.
page 215. "Ten Years in the Ranks U.S. Army" Augustus Meyers. Stirling Press, NY, 1914.
"When a halt occurred we did not know whether it was for a rest or only for a moment; a halt of a few minutes at the head of the lines miles away multiplied itself many time before it reached the rear...Those in the rear knew nothing of the cause and wondered why we did not go on, expecting every moment to hear the bugle sound the call "forward". When we halted we stood still for a few minutes waiting to go on again, and if there was no indication of it among the regiments immediately in front of us, we broke ranks without orders and unslung our knapsacks and sat on them or lay on the ground by the roadside if it was dry, the officer doing the same--for all company officers had to march on foot. If the halt continued for a while the men soon began to straggle off in search of water and wood; if it was evening, soon many small fires were burning along the road and many were making coffee in the tin cups; and perhaps before the coffee boiled the bugle would sound the command to "fall in"....

SUMMARY
By May 1862 the bugle call to HALT from a mile away, or a halt due to running into the regiment in front of you.... would soon see the men halting and falling out of ranks to rest and make coffee WITHOUT ANY ORDERS from First Sergeants and/or Captains. A regimental bugler might echo a Brigade or Division Buglers call.

Adding the bugle call LIE DOWN to the HALT meant immediate REST, with no wondering about whether the Halt was for 5 seconds or 3 minutes. This citation is from Oliver Norton's Army Letters 1861-1865 (and others).

There is no bugle call command to "fall in"....although it is mentioned enough in the writings as to hazard an educated guess that the call to 'fall in' was the ATTENTION. And Forward was used to get the column moving again.

So HALT plus LIE DOWN = REST
ATTENTION + FORWARD means Fall in on the road (post the colors on the road then sound the Attention), and proceed down the road.

We also know that ATTENTION while marching means strike up a cadence, Captains to the front of their companies, shoulder arms, take up the step, and correct alignments/intervals.

AND NONE OF THIS NEEDS A CAPTAIN OR FIRST SERGEANT TO ECHO THE COMMANDS. Especially in some stentorian yell aka voice of command. [recall that each company in turn mimics what the company in front of it is doing, and each regiment/brigade, Division mimics what each preceding regiment/brigade/Division does in the absence of contravening orders (see Coppee's "Evolutions of the Brigade" for example). A quiet admonishment/reminder to shoulder arms and pick up the step might be enough for your well disciplined, veteran unit.....a newby regiment might take some yelling).

BTW, our mainstreamers in the Midwest and 1st Federal Division have been doing this for 8 years.....so much for a Mainstream Reenactorism.  

--Last edited by RJSamp on 2007-09-15 14:37:55 --

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What the heck is "weather arms"?  I've heard some homemade commands before, but that's a new one on me.

The command "Weather arms" can be found in von Glockenspiel's Illustrated Manual for Balkan Marines.  In the same manual can be found the following wonderful command, which I have heard used several years in a row at a memorial observance in a cemetery:  "Forward at the muffle".

Ron Myzie
forgot to include my name  

--Last edited by Ephraim_Zook on 2007-09-18 15:25:02 --

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RJSamp wrote : Speaking of the General a Mile away on a route step march having his bugler sound the Halt, and Lie Down to get his men to rest off of the road for a 10 minute break. And trying to determine exactly what the Captain or First Sergeant of a company ordered the men to do...... This from a 2nd US Infantry Regular in May 1862 on campaign in Virginia marching with the V Corps. We all 'know' how BY THE BOOK the Regulars were, especially when compared to the 'undisciplined' volunteers and conscrïpts. page 215. "Ten Years in the Ranks U.S. Army" Augustus Meyers. Stirling Press, NY, 1914. "When a halt occurred we did not know whether it was for a rest or only for a moment; a halt of a few minutes at the head of the lines miles away multiplied itself many time before it reached the rear...Those in the rear knew nothing of the cause and wondered why we did not go on, expecting every moment to hear the bugle sound the call "forward". When we halted we stood still for a few minutes waiting to go on again, and if there was no indication of it among the regiments immediately in front of us, we broke ranks without orders and unslung our knapsacks and sat on them or lay on the ground by the roadside if it was dry, the officer doing the same--for all company officers had to march on foot. If the halt continued for a while the men soon began to straggle off in search of water and wood; if it was evening, soon many small fires were burning along the road and many were making coffee in the tin cups; and perhaps before the coffee boiled the bugle would sound the command to "fall in".... SUMMARY By May 1862 the bugle call to HALT from a mile away, or a halt due to running into the regiment in front of you.... would soon see the men halting and falling out of ranks to rest and make coffee WITHOUT ANY ORDERS from First Sergeants and/or Captains. A regimental bugler might echo a Brigade or Division Buglers call. Adding the bugle call LIE DOWN to the HALT meant immediate REST, with no wondering about whether the Halt was for 5 seconds or 3 minutes. This citation is from Oliver Norton's Army Letters 1861-1865 (and others). There is no bugle call command to "fall in"....although it is mentioned enough in the writings as to hazard an educated guess that the call to 'fall in' was the ATTENTION. And Forward was used to get the column moving again. So HALT plus LIE DOWN = REST ATTENTION + FORWARD means Fall in on the road (post the colors on the road then sound the Attention), and proceed down the road. We also know that ATTENTION while marching means strike up a cadence, Captains to the front of their companies, shoulder arms, take up the step, and correct alignments/intervals. AND NONE OF THIS NEEDS A CAPTAIN OR FIRST SERGEANT TO ECHO THE COMMANDS. Especially in some stentorian yell aka voice of command. [recall that each company in turn mimics what the company in front of it is doing, and each regiment/brigade, Division mimics what each preceding regiment/brigade/Division does in the absence of contravening orders (see Coppee's "Evolutions of the Brigade" for example). A quiet admonishment/reminder to shoulder arms and pick up the step might be enough for your well disciplined, veteran unit.....a newby regiment might take some yelling). BTW, our mainstreamers in the Midwest and 1st Federal Division have been doing this for 8 years.....so much for a Mainstream Reenactorism.

Now there's some good stuff. Thanks RJ.

I thought the command was "Secure Arms," in Casey's at least. It's what I'm used to.

Yikes...so many manuals, so many interpretations!  Being new to re-enacting (January 2007.)

I may be fortunate as has been suggested that I was not in the actually military so I do not need to forget one way to do things and re-learn another.

I will say that right or wrong our unit, 6th OVI does a lot of drill and works very hard on trying to go "by the book" and when in doubt (which with current 1st Sgt Davis and former 1st Sgt Cornett) we (well...not us lowly privates) determine how we will follow a command and do so uniformly.

For example, in place rest for us means you can do just about anything you want as long as one foot remains on line.  I've yet to see anyone in our company try to do so and lie down though.

I appreciate this forum and the opportunity to hear how we do things, how others do things and what it says it "the book"...whichever one is being quoted at the time.