The coming year we have a choice,with numbers dropping in the hobby due to age, gas, or burn out. What do you think about choice. AHT and GAC being so close together. Does this divide the hobby or make it better? I realize most forum posters are from the east so this is more of a regional question. I would like to know from the folks that don't always post and you know who you are. I am mainstream and always will be. So CPH and those that think like they do don't turn this question into a war. I taking my cooler and cannon to the GAC event. AHT is mainstream also so the CPH should have little comment if that is possible. Help or Hurt?

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

Quote :

I realize most forum posters are from the east so this is more of a regional question.

Doug, we have 220 members listed on this forum.  Ninety Six of them call home in the following states: Washington, Kentucky, Indiana, Texas, California, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabamba, South Carolina, West Virginia, Kansas, Michigan, Arkansas, Wisconsin, Missouri, South Dakota, Ohio and others.  That's 43.6 percent just for this forum that are not easterners.  

Also, you are inside the mainstream folder, thus mainstream conversation prevails.  Someone may sense that you are baiting CPHers with your post, and may cause trouble.  My mods will take care of any problems.

Thanks

Doug:

Event confliction, and I'm speaking of purely numbers, is rarely a good thing. That being said, the AHT event will surely raise the authenticity bar a notch or two as the guidelines (if past events of that ilk are any indicator) will not include "come all ye with a musket".  I haven't been to the GAC event in 6 years, but from what I remember, it was more of a fest than anything else. The battles had good masses of men, which is truly a sight to see for those that haven't, but little in the way of accuracy to the battles save Picketts Charge ("Forward men, remember to die well!")

From what I've been reading, the AHT event won't be including a whole lot of my persuasion (dismounted/horseless/skirmish cavalry - I'll take a WAG and say none), nor will it include more than just a little of my mounted brethren. Certainly not near enough to reenact any of the mounted/dismounted actions of that great campaign. The GAC event will........hence my trek will be to the GAC in July. I have this dream that the actions that include me and mine will be done as close to real as possible and be a good experience. Note that I said it was a dream....I'll go with high hopes, but, having been there before, low expectations.

The "confliction" of the two events won't effect me or mine much, but may effect infantry and artillery numbers more since AHT seems to be leaning more toward infantry actions and that may effect numbers of foot-sloggers at GAC if numbers of them attend only AHT.

In rambling further, some of the guys and girls that attend AHT wouldn't be caught dead at GAC anyway, so those numbers wouldn't affect GAC at all. Where the confliction comes in is where the units decide to attend en masse. In any other year, would they have gone to GAC and not AHT? That would hurt GAC, but would the old stalwart units who attend GAC (and there are some good one's that do) pass on AHT to support GAC? That would hurt AHT.

Also, I understand that  at least one western umbrella group is planning to attend with high numbers.

My bottom line and opinion for what it's worth....conflicting events only hurt both.  It creates the kind of animosity that we're beginning to see in regards to these two events. I'll bet a month's pay that we haven't seen the last nor worst of it by any means. But, I guess we'll have to wait and see the end results next year.  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2007-11-04 12:20:05 --

ok... before i answer this one someone is going to have to break down the abbreviations for me! lol.

Quote :

chatrbug wrote : ok... before i answer this one someone is going to have to break down the abbreviations for me! lol.

Dulcie:

AHT is the event called "At High Tide", brought to you by the Western Md. Heritage Foudation and Chris Anders.

GAC is the annual Gettysburg reenactment brought to you by the Gettysburg Anniversary Committee.

The GAC event is held every year at around the same time. AHT being, for lack of a better phrase, a one-time-good-deal held the week before the annual GAC event.

Funny, it just hit me again that "internet forums" are not the end-all of communications in our hobby. Merely one method and surely not the best.  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2007-11-04 14:29:51 --

MStuart
I agree with you, having two on the 145th is dividing the forces and hobby. The timing of AHT raises my concern. Why not an off year. Egoes are sometimes hard to keep in a pen. This forum is nice in the fact, that they have a place for everyone. Ken---
Thanks. I will always be a mainstreamer having said that it is not because of my kit or gun but my camping. My love of history is no less than any CPHers but I take a different approach. Better no different yes. AHT is somewhere in the middle,doing little for either side of the hobby. Dividing forces when numbers are in decline makes not sense to me.

Always
Doug Thomas

Only because "da stillers" (that's Pittsburghese for The Steelers) aren't playing today, my little pee brain will delve into this a little further. Not that this counts for a hill of beans, but here goes:

AHT is limiting itself to 4000 of all persuasions (soldiers, civilians).

I haven't looked, but the GAC is supposedly touting 10,000 participants.

I'll bet that 2000 of those going to AHT wouldn't have gone to GAC anyway. So there's 2000 that won't count or be taken away from GAC. A western organization (my ignorance of the name is showing here, but, my apologies since I'm not a member) is making AHT a max effort event. This to the tune, if I remember correctly from this or another forum, of one brigade/battalion under their command. So, for arguement's sake, let's say that 750 of that western organization will attend AHT. With my unscientific thinking and numbers, that 2750 folks wouldn't have gone to GAC anywho, any way. That leaves us with 1250 reenactors left in the AHT numbers that may not, or may, attend the GAC event.

Will 1250 non GAC attendee's take away, or ruin, the GAC event?

Thinking even more (a dangerous thing for me, some say), can the AHT event reach 4000 registered? Remember, if the past events by those folks are any barometer, the "authenticity standards" will be somewhat more strict than those of your regular mainstream event, i.e. greatly reduced numbers of gal-troops, families in a "mixed camp" and not permitted on the company streets as is usual in most MS events. Those are just a couple that stand out.

There's lots of units out there that have gal-troops (in both good and bad impressions) and are very used to having families camp in/on the company streets, not to mention vivandiere's and other such so-called specialty impressions. Right or wrong, they've got them and these folks are just as much unit members as the soldiers. The big question for them may be: if they want to attend AHT, are they willing to tell the bad or borderline gal-troops and vivandieres to stay home, as well as tell the troops with families they have to camp somewhere away from the main body if they want to come play? Things like this could be very instrumental in a unit's decision making. In a worst case scenario, leaving out some unit members and telling them they have to stay home is the thing that ruins units. In such a scenario, loyalty to one's unit members will take a big toll in the decision process. With that in mind, let's say that of the 1250 prospective AHT attendee's left, 400 of them opt out since they've got gal-troops, vivandiere's and the other family options and don't want to be bothered by those rules.

That leaves us with 850 folks going to AHT and taking away the numbers from GAC.  Will 850 folks not going to the GAC event make much of a dent in the overall numbers? Only time will tell.

Does any of that make sense? Or do I have too much time on my hands and should go downstairs and winterize my leather gear?  

--Last edited by mstuart on 2007-11-04 21:40:26 --

thank you Mark... now i can answer

we will be attending the GAC.... we are mainstream also. though i aim to be as authentic as possible. dh has no wants or desires to be authentic, then again he doesnt really want to go, but he goes because the kids and i go. so going more than mainstream would certainly scare him away lol. the kids and i do go to certain events on our own as its too much for him. we enjoy them. but for his sake, and to get him to go with us on occassion we stick to the mainstream. oh and its also our first yr... when i joined the unit we are in, i had no clue about mainstream vs hardcore or any of that.

this is also our first yr going to gettysburg in general... we have always lived to far away. now that we are in PA, its a bit of an easier trip! before it was almost a 2 day trip. so really my 6 count isnt taking numbers from anyone, just adding a new count lol.

Gettysburg

On to GAC in July, no matter who shows up.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

As Mark indicates, many folk who are anxiously awaiting Andersburg would not have attended Lomasburg/GAC anyway.  I know of some who would prefer to attend the former, but their unit has voted to do GAC, and they must go there.  I am not aware of the reverse situation.

For those who are okay with non-military folk camping in the military camps and/or modern items in the camps, there is only one choice: the GAC event.  The rules of Andersburg won't accomodate them.

The Army of Tennessee, the Confederate half of the North/South Alliance (a large western theater umbrella group) will at Andersburg.  To my knowledge, the 1st Federal Division (the Northern half) has not so committed, although some subgroups appear to be aiming in that direction.

I also am a mainstream reenactor, although I have also attend some campaign events as well.  Since mainstream takes in a lot of reenactor territory, there are varied and even divergent philosophies within that grouping.

I'll be at Andersburg.  For me, it's no contest, having attended the GAC event as a spectator in 2003 and a number of events put on by Mr. Anders in the last three years.  The fact that GAC has a significant "for profit" component for those who put it on, while Andersburg will be donating all profits to preservation, is also a consideration for me.

As for the main question:  Is the conflict of them being only a week apart significant and harmful to the hobby, particularly in a more significant anniversary year (on the fives, tens, etc.)?

As previously stated, most of the folk who will go to Andersburg would not have gone to GAC anyway, regardless of it being the 145th.  Although they are both mainstream events, there are significant differences in what they seek to present to both spectators and participants, and in how they plan to achieve those goals.  Each has its own attractions to the wide variety of reenactors.

In my opinion, those who attend GAC will get what they want from it regardless of the number of participants.  The only ones who could get less are the spectators, should the massive number of expected reenactors not appear.

Those who attend Andersburg will most likely get what they expect as well, but those expectations will be somewhat different than for the GAC event.

The numbers for Andersburg are self limiting; no more than 4000 participants.  GAC is open ended, and so has the potential to draw more participants if reenactors feel it is a worthwhile event to attend.  That will be decided by individuals and specific local units.

Since the target groups of potential participants will not have a tremendous amount of overlap, I don't see a major source of conflict, as in the old days when each year had two competing Gburg events.

Is it bad for the hobby?  It depends upon your point of view.  One take is that the one takes away from and weakens the other.  Another take is that there is now a Gettysburg event worth attending.  The former sees it as a negative, the latter as a positive.

In the end, it's up to the individual reenactor to decide which point of view is right for him/her.  

--Last edited by flattop32355 on 2007-11-05 02:07:47 --

Bernard

Aot/1st.Fed just had Mill Springs in Kentucky. Combined forces was around a thousand and that included independents. With gas prices and the drive from the West I would be surprized if a large number of troops from across the Mts. shows up. The hobby is in decline. Time will tell, if 4 thousand will show up for Mr. Anders event. Timing of his event raises concern. When will he put on the next Gettysburg, the 150th. I just hope he's not counting on the West much the numbers won't be there to support him.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

besides gas, one also has to look at who is going to hear about the events. i never heard of andersonville until this event. the only other event i have heard about was the march during gettysburg, something i cant do anyways and i know hubby wont consider it.

I have been reenacting since 98 and have yet to do a Gettysburg event.  I missed the 135th because I didn't have enough vacation time get to it.  I became frustrated with the large mega events with the 140th Antietam and with that have not been really eager to do a Gettysburg event.  

But I have been to Sept Storm, Summer of 62 and enjoyed those because the battle scenarios are well planned and as a soldier in the ranks had some great moments.  So when I saw there would be an alternative event, I marked my calander for it.  I will be planning on going to AHT, and will try to persuade the members of my unit to attend also.  Those who don't want to are welcome to attend the GAC event the following week.

Do I think the 2 events will hurt each other.  I don't think it will have the impact that we are making it out to be.

I guess we will find out next July 7th after the dust has settled and the AAR's start to come in.  I think the one thing that having these 2 events near each other will do is give the GAC an "excuse" should their event not do well.

I wonder how many people will take a week of vacation and do both events? It's an attractive option for a variety of reasons, and a good number of locals in the typical couple-of-hour-drive radius can participate in both efforts with little or no expenditure of vacation days.

Remaining to be answered is who is doing the usual anniversary LH on the battlefield. The Mifflin Guard usually does this NPS interp program each year, except for the anniversary years when they go to the shoot 'em up, if memory serves me.

Your memory is correct. As for me, I'll be as far away from both events as I can fish. Unless the theme park/water slide's open by then.

Quote :

Charles Heath wrote : I wonder how many people will take a week of vacation and do both events? It's an attractive option for a variety of reasons, and a good number of locals in the typical couple-of-hour-drive radius can participate in both efforts with little or no expenditure of vacation days. Remaining to be answered is who is doing the usual anniversary LH on the battlefield. The Mifflin Guard usually does this NPS interp program each year, except for the anniversary years when they go to the shoot 'em up, if memory serves me.

You are correct Charles, in fact on one of those anniversary years, the Potomac Legion filled in that weekend and did a bang up job.

Quote :

chatrbug wrote : besides gas, one also has to look at who is going to hear about the events. i never heard of andersonville until this event. the only other event i have heard about was the march during gettysburg, something i cant do anyways and i know hubby wont consider it.

Andersonville was a Confederate prisoner of war camp where many men died.  It is located in Georgia.
"Andersburg" is a reenactment scheduled to take place in June of next year near the Gettysburg Battlefield Park, put on by Chris Anders.

To separate it from the annual GAC G'burg reenactment, it is sometimes referred to as Andersburg.

Bernie,

Did you really steal Todd Morris' infamous "tiny hat" and stick it on that monkey's head?  

How much rain central PA gets next spring and early summer could play a big part in determining whether the 2 events go as planned.  As was pointed out to me, the GAC site is on a flood plain and in 2 past years the event has had to be postponed due to wet conditions. I think it was in 2005 the GAC event had to be moved into August.
I understand the AHT site has hills and woods and does not have a drainage problem.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

Kent,

If you've been to the "Gettysburg movie shoot site" aka Yingling Farm, then you've been to the property. Registration will probably be in the big red barn made infamous in the movie Gettysburg, just as it was in the days when Don Warlick and Glenn Le$ were having their annual events on that site. One of their efforts was "The Forgotten Battles," and that highlighted some of the lesser known actions.  

--Last edited by Charles Heath on 2007-11-06 19:30:41 --